Ep. 75 - The Divine Voice: Navigating Art, Pain, and Purpose with Scott Erickson

Healing Through Art: How Scott Erickson Turns Pain into Purpose

What if the very obstacles that make creativity seem out of reach are the same forces that unlock our deepest, most transformative work? On this episode of The Creative Genius Podcast, I’m joined by artist, author, and creative curator Scott Erickson for an illuminating conversation about the power of creativity to heal and inspire.

Scott opens up about his personal journey. He talks about the emotional intelligence needed to turn pain, burnout, and existential crises into powerful forms of artistic expression. Whether you’re an artist, a creative soul, or simply someone seeking to unlock your own potential, Scott’s wisdom is sure to inspire.

Throughout the episode, we explore key themes such as the importance of surrendering to inner voices, the healing nature of storytelling, and how gratitude can be a doorway to unlocking creativity and joy. Scott’s vulnerability and humor add warmth to his profound insights, offering listeners a transformative perspective on art, life, and the creative process.

If you’ve ever felt stuck creatively or wanted to explore how art can serve as a healing mechanism, you won’t want to miss this episode. Tune in to discover how Scott Erickson uses his gifts to make the world a more connected and meaningful place.

I’ve also created something special for my Patreon community to go with this episode, it is a new journal worksheet called "Excavating Your Purpose - Going Under Your Limiting Beliefs to Find Your Purpose." It’s designed to help you dig deep and uncover the beliefs that may be holding you back, so you can step into your true path. Join my Patreon today to download this exclusive worksheet and access other tools for personal growth and creativity. I’d love to see you there!

I’ve simplified and upgraded everything in the Patreon; so now there’s just one $10 tier (around $7 USD) that unlocks the entire Patreon Library.—bonus episodes, guided meditations, live workshop replays, and so much more. It's amazing, I hope you consider signing up!

PS - Did you know you can watch a full video of today's episode on my Youtube channel? There are some great little mini videos too. Subscribe when you're there!

Full Transcript

Kate Shepherd: So

great to meet =you.

Scott Loves You: Here we are

from screens to scream dreams.

Kate Shepherd: I just want to give you a sense of what, this conversation is about. Like why I'm

having this conversation over and over again with people.

I'm an artist. I've been an artist all my life since I was born, basically. It's how I came into the

world. And a lot of that came really naturally to me, intuition, especially like I have this super power with. just knowing stuff. And I, spent a lot of time as a jeweler and I never had to measure anything because I just, know things. And I thoUght that came really easily to everybody. And it didn't. I also found out that I have a condition called aphantasia, where my mind's eye is blind.

I can't actually visualize when I close my eyes. I don't see anything. It's just always been black in there. I also thought that's how everybody was. I didn't know you could see.

Scott Loves You: I didn't even know that was Wow.

Okay.

Kate Shepherd: didn't

even know. I didn't even know that. the way you see the world in your mind is possible. And I think we're just

starting to have this sort of collective conversation where we realize like there are

so many different ways of being a human

and seeing, and we're all wired so, so differently.

And, but anyway, my experience with being an artist, it was a choiceless choice, like I couldn't do anything else.

I wouldn't survive this world if I didn't, if I wasn't an artist, ,

Scott Loves You: I'm sighing. I'm sighing from that's a beautiful statement. Kate, I feel like I'm going to take so many notes on this

conversation. This is like the pep talk I needed right now. Okay.

Keep going.

Kate Shepherd: glad. Okay, I had a very traumatic childhood. So there's a lot of abuse and chaos and violence and

drugs and addiction. And

so I came into the world in a very chaotic way. This

very sensitive soul, finely tuned for intuition and creativity. And I was on my own with it from a very young age.

which has been the most blessing anybody could ever ask for because it formed me in that crucible. It formed me into this person that I am today, which I wouldn't trade for the world,

but years and years of being in a professional setting where people would come up to me at shows or in galleries or wherever I was with my work. And there would be this moment where people would go, Oh, you're an artist. I wish I, could do that. I wish I had that in me. And I say this over and over again, I explain this to almost every guest, like that, that this, that moment that led me to this, because for years I had this guilt that I had this thing that these people all wanted.

It. And it made me feel like I shouldn't have this thing. Like I just, it was it, bothered me for so long. And I sat with it long enough to realize that wish, Was actually creativity trying to talk to that person saying, let me out.

Like you do have me in you. You are the artist you want to be. Otherwise you wouldn't give a shit. You wouldn't be yearning for me. I had this moment one day where I was walking down the street and I heard that voice that I know you've heard before, cause we've all had it. And it said, and now you'll start a podcast. It was almost comical the way it came in. And I was like, what? Hell no. I'm an introvert and I came from a family of broadcasters and it's a really dysfunctional world and I had wanted nothing to do with it, but I know that voice and I know not, I know what happens to me when I don't listen to that voice.

And so I knew I had to do this thing. So I

started this podcast, not even really knowing. what it was. But when I sat with it long enough going, okay, voice, you want me to start a podcast? What is it? What do I even have to offer? I don't have anything to offer. I have a broken brain that can't see things.

And I'm an artist who's barely scraping it by. And I'm a single mom. And what could I possibly offer?

Scott Loves You: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: And then I realized that it was about this, we're glitching. Humanity is glitching. And that's the tagline of the podcast because we are systematically taught to shove down, suppress, lower strangle.

Creativity. that creativity is the intelligence that's animating the entire universe. It's the thing that tells the molecules in a rock, how to stay in the shape of a rock and a tomato seed when it's time to sprout it, you, how to write a poem and me, how to send the painting out

All it's everything.

And we have, taught ourselves how to cut ourselves off from it. And then we're yearning. Then there's those people at the market who are like, Oh, I wish I had that. We, do,

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: I hope that somebody listening to this conversation here's something that they need to hear so that they can wake up to that part of themselves and realize It's not something they have to go on a big long journey or pay thousands of dollars in therapy to rediscover or find or fix or it is already here.

You came in with it, it's in its current state. It's already perfect and reminding you how to find it.

Scott Loves You: I love it.

Do you think everybody is invited to be a creative though?

Kate Shepherd: so my definition of creativity is that it's the intelligence that's animating the universe. You could call that God, you could call it the universe, you could call it,

but it's the thing. It's the invisible life force. That's infinitely intelligent. That is brutal.

Like kind of doesn't give a shit whether it runs over you or not. And it's need to express itself, right? It's just like life has to life growth has to grow.

Creativity has to create, and yes, we all have it.

No, I don't think we're all artists.

And I think as, and I've thought about this a lot too, and I'm glad you brought it up.

I think as. Artists. We are stewards of that energy in a different way. I

think that's where mastery comes in. I think practice discipline

and all kinds of things we can talk about that honor that energy, but no, we're not all here for the same thing. Like

for sure. Not for Yeah.

Not, but

Scott Loves You: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm there with you. I think not everyone, not everybody's invited to be a vocational artist, nor should they be because we need people to take care of electrical systems and

all

kinds of things like that. But, I, and I, the way that I define it is I'm, a I'm, an artist because I'm a haunted person, like things come to me and they're like, make me and I'm like, I can't, I'm driving right now. They're like,

Kate Shepherd: Yeah.

Scott Loves You: get in an accident. They're like, make me or we'll go away. And I'm like, no, don't go away. Okay, hold on. I'm pulling over and pulling out my sketch pad and I'm trying to release the haunting.

I but my parents my wife, they don't, they're not haunted. Like I'm

haunted. And I'm not saying that makes me better. It's just, it's the choiceless choice is such a great word.

It's such a great phrase. It's just and partly cause I'm, I feel like I'm 47. And at this time of your life, there's a lot of conversations with my peers that I'm like, should I change my job?

Am I on, am I doing the thing? Can this go for 20 more years or however long is there a future with this? And I had just, I've, 10 years. I've been a creative my whole life, but 10 years vocationally and just going, what else would I do?

Kate Shepherd: Yeah. Can't work for anyone else now. At this

point

Scott Loves You: I think those skills could translate to another company and stuff, but. I just and that's all learned stuff. Everything's learnable. But yeah, it's that kind of what happens to the haunting then?

Kate Shepherd: Okay. So I want to talk about that. I definitely want to go back to haunted,

but I want to make sure that our listeners know a little bit about you.

You call yourself as a curator of awesomeness, which I also want to touch on. I think that's amazing. But just tell us about your work in the world.

You, you write and you make art and you perform. Can you give us a picture of what that looks like?

Scott Loves You: Yeah, I, if I was to break Down my work and like this three categories that kind of help me make sense of it Which is one. I'm a painter illustrator so trying to Visualize illustrate concept ideas things like that Through my iPad and digital stuff to actual paint on canvas. Then second is I'm a I've, made four books, I'm making, and I, my fifth book comes out next year.

And I hope to continue as long as I can. I love books and I'd love to be able to make books the rest of my life. and then lasTly, I'm a public speaker. , I've had two one man shows that I've toured and I get hired to speak at things sometimes. ,

I view myself more as a performing artist than I do like just a visual artist. More of a meaning person. oriented artist, then a medium oriented artist.

For me, it's more of what's the concept or the idea that I want to go through the transformation of, and then what's the best way to translate that?

Is it a book? Is it a one? Is it a talk? Is it a comedy routine? Is it a series of posters? Is it a tattoo, flash sheet whatever it is, and I have, a bunch of things planned. We're like, I've actually, I'm in a weird I'm, really glad we're talking today.

Cause I hope to get a bit of a soul pep talk from you as much as I can give back. Because I finished two really long projects. I made a, this one person show called say yes, a liturgy of not giving up on ourselves. And I toured that for five years, made a book into it. I filmed it. It's on YouTube, but I knew I needed to end it because I needed to like make space for the next thing, which I don't fully know what that is.

So I'm in that kind of in between and the start where you just have a vague idea of you're like, I don't, I'm not going to book any shows. I don't even know what I'm talking about. And then I finished a book project that was like six months. And so I'm just in this, I'm probably a little tired and I'm in this ramping up to the next thing, but I don't know what it is.

So this kind of weird liminal space, I think throughout our lives, we go through cyclical moments of humiliation, not meaning ending up on America's Funniest Home Videos or something like that, but more of the, this the, necessary dissolving of your ego so that you can enter in, because the only way to enter into whatever the voice, the muse wants to give us is through the doorway of humility.

And so there needs to be a necessary humiliation to prepare you for that. And so I'm in the very unsexy path of humiliation currently.

Kate Shepherd: Because you don't know what's next.

Scott Loves You: I have ideas of what's next. It's more of, I think it's finding the place from within myself to be in the conversation of what's next.

So let's say the show, this next like show or talk, I, I've been spending some time to just really listen, prayer, meditation, a lot of walks. And I just sensed the voice say to me, You need to lay down whatever you think you're supposed to do next, or whatever you think is, it's supposed to look like, or what it's supposed to be about.

You need to just lay down. Let all of that die and, trust the process that you're being taken on just like it's happened before. Just let it just go through the process and you will be given everything you need to accomplish what you've been asked to do, which is a prayer that I have. will be given everything you need to accomplish what you've been asked to do. That's something I got from The Voice a long time ago and I come back to it often.

Kate Shepherd: I think a lot of people who are listening can identify with what you're saying. And I know I can, like my, I often feel like. I'm, asking and I'm listening and I'm listening so carefully. And I'm like, I hear crickets. I'm like, come on, what do you want me to be doing?

Use me. Like I'm like, use me. I want to be in service so badly. Use me. And I don't, and I look at my life and I'm like, what are you trying to tell this? None of this makes sense. I'm looking at the clues of this is taken off, but this isn't and this isn't, and then this took off amazingly and now it's stalled out.

What are you trying to tell me? I guess like you're pointing at your own version of that. And how do you navigate that so that you don't become just like a person who's I'm just waiting for the news to talk to me. And I guess my wife will support us for now. And you still have to be in the world and do stuff. How do you navigate?

Scott Loves You: that's very, that is happening. My

wife is we're fine.

Kate Shepherd: Yeah.

Scott Loves You: Like, we're okay.

Kate Shepherd: Like, you can't, and sometimes you do need to lean on your person or your world or whatever and just trust the universe itself even. But I guess what I'm pointing at is that ego part can get so sneaky as we go further along

and it can actually, you start to approach something that's really deep and really meaningful and really real. And that part of you is really scared and is no, I got to do everything I can to stop this guy from, giving himself to this bigger thing, the service, this thing that he's really being asked to do. Cause it's scary. It's unknown. I don't like the unknown. So I'm going to come in and I'm going to make it seem like, Oh

You shouldn't have answers or you should have this or, I'm going to make it seem like he should do nothing.

Like it's such a trickster. How do you know what

Scott Loves You: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: do you know what to listen to in there?

Scott Loves You: Yeah. I have a long list of things to do. So I have little accomplishables. I think there's a number of things. One is, and I got this from my friend, Chase Reeves but just like ride, ride the wave you're already on.

So it's not like I have, it's not like I have nothing in Xero. It's like there are some things. There's like a list of illustrations. There's like things I got to do on my website, , there's things to do. I think fostering curiosity and paying attention to where I feel like I'm coming alive.

Like the things that bring me to life where the, and spend time with that and fostering that kind of energy is important. Like what, is energy? I keep coming back to these same stories and I'm like there's something in these stories that are making me really energetic.

There's life there. So spend time where the life is. And because sometimes this is what happens is you can get if we imagine like a path that you're walking down. This is like when you write like a speech. Or a talk or something you can keep, you usually start with an idea you're excited about, and then you just start

and you get so far into it that you're just like, I hate this talk now. I don't even wanna do this talk. And you need to like back yourself up to where you were, like the energy was, and go, what was the energy that I was so excited about? 'cause now I'm way stuck in the details of I think I should do it.

This where it needs to be. It's no, come back to where the, it's like. Keep the energy and I think you can do that in your life too. It's like you can get into your title or what you think your job is or what you think you're supposed to be doing and go well like when was the last time I really felt energized and alive and what was that about and why am I not spending time there and how could I maybe spend a little bit of time with that admits you get it like the dishes and the laundry

, I have this little tiny yellow notebook that I can keep in my.

And it's where I collect all the hauntings that we'll come back to in a second. My friend and I were sitting over just over here talking and I was like when I get in these kind of Stages where I don't quite know what to do yet. I have a default Awful things I say to myself.

They

just come up which is like I don't have anything to say. I'm actually not talented You know, whatever and I was like, you know what? I'm going to write the exact opposite of all those things I say and just every day I'm gonna look at these and say something different. So here's what I so it says different mantras.

What would I say differently? I have something to say I'm good at what I do. It's worth showing up for. It's not all up to me and I have help.

Kate Shepherd: oh,

Scott Loves You: I have just been like saying these every day to counter whatever neurological rut that I easily get stuck in. And so with the writing of a new show or writing of a new thing, I figured out a while ago that creativity is really embodied.

And so I'll do I'll have notes and things and collect ideas, but then I'll go on a really long walk with my notebook and just let my body help me work it out. And so on Fridays, typically, I've just been like, get the kids in school. And then I just go down to the riverfront and I go on a long walk.

And I've just been starting from the premise I actually have something to say. Actually, I have something to say because at post show post five years of building something one of the common things that I've heard from comedians or actors or anybody is just like, was that the last, will I ever

make anything like that again?

Was that the last, was that it? Did

I, say everything I had to say?

And so I've just been purposefully ignoring that and going, I have something to say, I have more to say. And that, that has been a generative. like a workout. It is like

Kate Shepherd: Yeah,

Scott Loves You: workout it is, it's it feels counterintuitive at times.

It feels like this but it, forces me to get into it, which is what I want to do.

Kate Shepherd: I feel like I've, had experiences where I haven't wanted to even open up what my next thing is I'm scared that it will be my last thing. And what if that's it? And so then I don't even want to open it. It's I want to save it for later. Like how you save your favorite bite for the last on the plate or something like it's and it's so made up, like it's so not true.

Scott Loves You: And maybe, but that's why I think my, that voice was saying, you need to let whatever you think you're supposed to do die because you're, because something will come, but you need to be, have a space for that. One of the things that happened last week, it was, I was like, Oh, my last two shows were about something that happened to me that then I wanted to talk about.

And I make it into a weird magical way. I don't know if anything's like really happened to me, like massively significant. Like I got in a car accident and I almost died and I survived. And now I want to talk. So what, but a note that I got was like, what if, the next thing you make is, really about, I want, it's not necessarily talking about something that happened to you, but it's I find myself at this place and I want to move forward.

And I wanted, to make this thing so I could help people. Myself do that and I needed all of you to do that with me And so because what i've been from performing the last few years i'm really fascinating what's always hidden in the room hiding out in the audience collectively the stories and the experiences and stuff and I was like maybe the next thing is like Less you carrying the narrative and maybe it's more excavating from the audience and maybe it's really allowing people to, speak into that and, then curating that.

Giving holding the guardrails for a show to make sure it doesn't like completely suck,

but the, but go. What would it be like to just, to not have to be the person who's can you believe that thing that happened to me? Oh my, it's more of what happened to all of you?

And so just even being open to that. And then a friend of mine who, and this has happened with the last show, cause it was, the last show was very different than from the one before. And I remember talking to him, he was in a band for a long time that was really successful. And he was like when we get into the studio and We get all in our heads about this has to be the album.

This has to be the one that's gonna. And in order to get to allow ourselves into the creative process, we just go this is the album before the album. We have to get through this one. This is the record before the record. We have to get through this one to get to the one. And so he was like when you're putting this together, maybe this is the show before the show.

He's maybe this, isn't the show, but the next is, but you have to do this show to get to the next one. And so he's and maybe you just do it 10 times. Maybe you do it a hundred times. You don't know. It just, it's just the show. Just let it be whatever it wants to be. And so I'm bringing that to this process as well, which is.

Just maybe, you need to do a PowerPoint talk. Maybe you need to like who knows what you need to go through, but maybe let it, it's okay if what it is, you're just pretty good at making sure you don't want it to be boring. You know how to entertain an audience. You know how to make something interesting.

So just do

the show before the show. I think I might call it the show before the show.

Kate Shepherd: the show before the show. Oh, that's a good one. I like it.

Scott Loves You: Yeah. And I hate saying that aloud because then somebody is going to buy that URL

Kate Shepherd: I can cut it out. I can cut it out if you

Scott Loves You: It's fine. It's

Kate Shepherd: Okay.

Oh my God.

Scott Loves You: of, my, One of my readings in the last year, both people said Hey, watch out when you're sharing your ideas.

Kate Shepherd: Yeah. Yeah,

Scott Loves You: that make sense?

Kate Shepherd: I,

yeah.

Scott Loves You: They were like, watch out sharing your ideas.

Kate Shepherd: Yeah, I think that, yes, and it reminds me of when I had, when my babies were first born and I wouldn't let anybody hold them for the

first two months and my in laws were really choked and I was like, sorry, but I'm not just going to hand this baby on the party.

It's not ready yet. It's it's not ready yet. So

sometimes your baby isn't ready to be handed around the party yet.

Scott Loves You: Sometimes your baby is a, that's such a great line.

Just

Kate Shepherd: it down.

Scott Loves You: bangers today, Kate.

Kate Shepherd: The, image that I felt when you were sharing just now was the, nut of the creative process. That is the, rub of, it is that you get this this gift comes through you and it's yours to express and your job, your mission, your challenge is to figure out how the heck is that supposed to happen?

And you can't. If you're truly doing it, you can't do it based on looking through the filing cabinet of what you did before to make up the new thing. Like you're

always on the edge of the new thing.

You don't get to, you're never going to get to a place where you know, Oh now this is what it's going to look like. It's never going to happen.

It's always, that surrender has to be hand in hand with the gift that's coming through, but you don't get to know what it looks like. And I find that Extremely frustrating as a, somewhat of a control freak, maybe type a person that I want to know how it's going to look.

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: somebody who went through trauma and nevermind, let's have a kinder lens on that. Somebody went through trauma. It's very comforting for me to have some idea of what comes next.

Scott Loves You: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: saying to really receive a gift, you do have to be like, hands open.

Scott Loves You: And look, when we, if we get into like spiritual and mystical talk, the structure I was given was a Christo centric structure and that still works for me a lot of ways, but My beliefs are not on brand with the like Christianity of America and things like that.

But, so when I say this, but let's, we can just say the voice, like I felt called by a voice to be a vocational artist And And that has been a very tempered and vulnerable and wonderful journey. It's mostly been a thrifty journey, but in the last few years, my wife and I's businesses have worked out, but I, so here's, a couple of things that have come up in this season is one.

I didn't have hardly any work all summer long, no paychecks, and it triggers this, learned for year after year of just, am I going to get paid? Is there money? Is paying, it was eight years ago, we were on food stamps over the last few months, that's been really hard for me and, I've had to pay attention to that.

And my wife, she's we're fine. We're not, we're okay. And so I've been trying to go, okay, what is being, but it's that this workaholism or I have to keep producing when you're self employed. You're like, I just have to keep producing. I have to keep producing to keep this going. And so I'm having to detox painfully.

Also, I vulnerably and we're we're buddies now, but like I have some really hard self contempt that comes up and I'm able to push it down through productivity, but when I'm not being productive, it fucking comes up and I go into therapy next week and I'm talking to another person today and I'm just like, I have to, work through, I have to, when I'm, so when I say process, I, believe benevolence.

Sees the scope of my life. And so it's not just concerned about what kind of drawings I'm gonna make It's like the process is now it's time to really deal with this wound now. It's time for you to Deal with your you know fear of in What is the Mary Oliver poem? I don't know what a poem is I don't know what prayer is, but I know how to lay down in the grass to be idled and blessed.

Maybe I need to learn how to be idle and blessed and that is part of the process. So that's what I'm trying to pay attention to amidst three kids and child care and, life and rent and all that, you know what I'm saying?

My show was, it was my off. I wanted to make a, ceremony about suicide, like a church service about suicide, because I'd never been to one, but I've definitely been to like church services that were so boring that I

I was so bored to death. And that joke made me go, Oh, you have to make like a weird comedy about it. I just started taking my own notes from my own suicidal ideation. And I it was about taking those things, then translating them into something entertaining.

And then and then Anthony Bourdain killed himself. And then I was like, Oh, Anthony Bourdain, he was hoping what you turn out to be one day. Like he had the if I was really honest, it was like, Oh, I hope I can be myself Transcribed unabashedly, and it'd lead me to success and travel and, I was like, he didn't even want to be himself either.

So I was like, oh shit. I have to make something that's about reminding myself that this is not, that doesn't keep you around. What keeps you around? So that's, I had to make the thing to have the conversation with myself and then bring others in it. So I'm just what's the conversation now?

And I think it has to do about paradox. I think it has to do about change. I think it has to be about what we're turning into. And, Why it's hard to change and why we want, but we also want to change. I don't know. That's kind of it. How do

you turn your pain and turn, how do you take your pain and turn it into something?

Is there, what's the alchemic way of doing that? And I, think the, clues I'm getting from the universe are like, yeah, that's what you should try to put together. Cause I was at this show in Portland. My friend was playing in town and I ran into some people who like my work and they were, we were talking and.

One guy was a therapist and he go, and he was just like, Oh, I'm always trying to help people like turn their pain into something. And I was like, man, that's like the idea for my next show. I was like, I feel like that's a helpful.

Our lives are not just like compartmentalized and like here's work and personal it's like at least for the creative it's oh no like part of creativity is therapy and wound healing and noticing and

Kate Shepherd: And shitty

Grungy, that healing journey I know there's a lot of Instagram clouds and mist and mountains and trees and healing journey. That's not the healing journey. The healing journey is like heartbroken grief, . You talk about the overwhelming voice of giving up and learning how to sit with those things rather than shoving them down through all the ways that you've learned how to, that's the healing journey. And it isn't pretty. It's beautiful, but it isn't pretty.

Scott Loves You: I don't mean this as like a punishment for. Not being good during your life, but the healing journey is going into the underworld If we look at the path of how people become healers in the community it's it always starts with a descent into the underworld hell where you're dissolved?

A caterpillar being prepared to be a butterfly. You need to be dissolved, which is your illusions need to be dissolved, your ego needs to be dissolved, you need to be cut up into pieces and thrown in a vat, and who you think you are and what you think reality is needs to be destroyed.

Because then a power greater than you will put you back together into something new and you'll briefly to the heavens where you'll see briefly the ecstasy of something greater and then you'll find yourself back in your life going, I'm a different something different about me and I can't go back to what I was and I don't know how to be that thing.

But it gives me a direction. And then that's how you translate that experience into something that becomes healing for others. That's the process I want to talk about

Kate Shepherd: I'm hoping you'll tell me a little bit about the haunting, the haunted, The

hauntedness.

Scott Loves You: hauntedness.

Kate Shepherd: Because I think it's an interesting choice of word because I, when I think of how I've had moments where I know, and I'm not, I wasn't raised in a particularly religious, I don't, I had a hard time even saying God for a long time because I thought it belonged to a community that wasn't mine.

And, but I've had several moments that I could count probably on one hand where I have heard the voice of God, like I have heard

Scott Loves You: Yeah,

Kate Shepherd: And I also, had many more smaller ones. where I felt it in the room with me. And it's not something I can summon where I'm like, Hey, I want to talk to God right now.

And I need to know, I need some answers. It's not like a thing I can control her but it's definitely something, a real presence.

It brings me to my knees.

I got I'll be, tears are coming out of my eyes. And I'm, there's this love that I have for this thing. And I want to give myself to it and I want to hear it. And I wouldn't say the word haunted. I wouldn't, it wouldn't. So it's interesting to me that you're, using that word. And I want to show more about that.

Scott Loves You: It's also love. Listening to the voice of God, a pronoun trying to describe a mystery we can't understand is also listening to the voice of love. So I don't say God that often. I say Almighty, Divine. My favorite pronoun is Giver. That's my, that's my pet name. If I have a pet name

for the Divine, the Giver. .

The haunting is, I, don't know if what my kids will go to therapy about, but it might just be like, yeah, my dad was always just looking into space

Kate Shepherd: No.

Scott Loves You: we were doing other things. That's what I, the haunting is like this thing that like, impregnates in my imagination.

And then I just, it's it's, something's being birthed and I can't get rid of it while I'm at a soccer practice like it's just that kind of, it's there, it's like a like a spirit floating around. And. And sometimes it's really fucking annoying. I

wish I could just like,

Kate Shepherd: Huh.

Scott Loves You: turn it off and watch Wheel of Fortune or something.

I just, it's like a, yeah. And I don't know if that's just like my particular personality or upbringing or whatever. But it, here's what, I just, what I've made amends with. I think I said this earlier is like my parents and my wife aren't haunted. Like they're not invited to the same dance I'm invited to.

And I, think saying yes to the haunting is just going, I realized him and I really, it wasn't like I jumped in and I was just like, I'm an artist actually like. Realizing I was an artist was like a kind of a disappointing moment for me.

What did you want to be?

Scott Loves You: I was like 27 and I was an art teacher at a high school and I was just starting to date my wife now. But I remember just having this, it's far too long of a story, but it, I went to New York city where my friends were going to art school and I met a bunch of people.

I met, Glenn Hansard of the frames who I have a poster over there where he encouraged me to be an artist and all this, and I, just was like, Oh, I think I just remember sitting at this coffee shop in Seattle. Back in the 90s, and just going, what the best, the way that I should live my life is to probably spend my life doing the things I'm best at.

And at the time I was like, Oh, not a, I was a horrible painter. And I don't even think I'm a good painter now, but I was like, I think the best thing I should be doing is making art and. That seems You know, that seems that's disappointing meaning like all these all my friends are doing really important work in the world They're like teachers and administrators and non profit starters and i'm just supposed to be in a room with my emotions going I feel you know and my analogy In that moment was there was this cartoon in the nineties, two thousands called Captain Planet.

And it was this like environmental propaganda cartoon for children, which was the earth spirit Gaia realized the planet was being polluted. So she gave out these five power rings to teenagers to fight polluters on the planet. And if they, do you know this one?

Kate Shepherd: I think

Scott Loves You: fight, if they couldn't, right.

beat them they could combine their powers and it'd make this guy captain planet

and he had blue he had green hair and he was blue and he You

know, if oil was leaking out, he'd do a tornado and the oil would go back in the ground and everything would be clean. Again, there's these five rings, five powers and it's earth, wind, fire, and water, which are very strong.

And then the fifth one was this, it was the, heart ring. And his name was Mati, because Mati had the heart ring, which his power was to instill caring and sympathy for people in the world to care for the planet.

So what I imagined Being called to be an artist, I was like, Oh, it's like everybody else got really powerful things like good and evils duking it out.

And I'm that one guy standing in the midst going, I just want you to feel, I just want you to care. And I was like, that sounds like the person who's going to get their butt kicked in a

fight. And, but I remember just in the coffee shop going, okay, if this is what you want me to receive, I'll do it.

But if. At the end of my life, if I'm held accountable or judged for this moment, it's not my fault. It's your fault because I don't know if I would have chosen this, but I was like, show me what I'm supposed to do with it. And then, my summary is, this is guns and money. And bombs will change the world.

Yeah, but really To change things in the world. You need to know the conversation of a human heart and to be an artist is to become Familiar with the conversation of a human heart. That's how I see being an artist.

Kate Shepherd: I love that.

I mean, I think it is, it feels to me like it is the gateway, like all these other things to me, not to diminish all the other rings and the

other powers in the world, but to me without the heart, that's all rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

There's no point. It's yeah.

Scott Loves You: Yeah

Kate Shepherd: I wanted to ask you what your, two things, what your relationship is like with the giver.

Do you have an ongoing conversation? Do you talk to each other? Do you talk back? Do you, how do you feel about it? You, are you scared of it? What is your relationship to it? How are you constellated in your own mind's eye about, with it? And, then how does it speak to you? Does it, is it an art?

Can you hear it regularly when you're going to it for guidance or how does it, show up for you?

Scott Loves You: Kate, great question right now. I hope to be like Elizabeth Gilbert one day. Are you familiar with

Elizabeth Gilbert?

And her I've been doing her love letters because that actually has been a real helpful conduit to hear the voice correctly. I was institutionalized in a religion that, that gave me a lot of, this is what the, voice sounds like, and I'm still weeding some of that stuff out. I will say what, what gets mixed into the cement. When it hardens, it's very hard to get out. And when you are young, that is when that is your cement being mixed.

And then when you hit adulthood, it hardens, and it's very hard to get all that stuff out. So I think there's still a conflict at times of what I, Intuit what I know the voice to be like versus what I was institutionalized to be the voice So I've have found myself like angry at times and lately, Distrustful. I think there's still a bit of I don't know like Existence is wonderful and awful at the same time

and it's hard to just go The divine is good when i'm like You There's a lot to say you're not. And so it's more of a wrestle and a frustrative conversation. The best, my friend, Levi, he's a poet.

He told me, he was like, I was just on this walk. And I just was like, God. Fuck you, and I love you, and he's like I just said that over and over again And I was like that sounds like one of the psalms dude I think that's I think that's a pretty good summary of what it feels like to be a human

Kate Shepherd: Yeah.

Scott Loves You: and to even want to make space for a place of that, but like here's what I come back to is I don't know.

For one. All right. God is an endlessly knowable mystery And so I don't there's oftentimes where i'm like, I don't even know where to start But here's here there are places that have never closed in me that lead me to some kind of I have to make space for this in my life. One is gratitude just is always an open door of joy and mystery So mystery two, there's so many things like we just don't even know what it is, even our consciousness, even what we are, we don't know, we don't know what we are.

And still for 10, 000 years, we don't know what we are. But women and men have been writing and . Poeticizing and discussing this forever and we can partake in that same tradition. Beauty is a place too because there are some things in the world that you just witnessed I, I don't know what that did to me.

But I, whatever that is, I want to, I want more of that. So there's, these, you know what I'm saying? There's these experiences and these things, aspects of life that make, that don't allow me to close off the conversation with the divine. And and so I, I try to find the play. I'm trying to find the places and materials and practices that, that.

Allow me to or help me get into a good thing But there are days where i'm just I think i'm mad and i'm sad and i'm all And I were allowed to grieve

But I it's funny because i'll because I write through kind of a Christian lens the algorithm gives me a lot of people in that and then I find myself in some arguments.

Not really. I want to have those arguments, but people will counter. And I, recently, I've been like this one guy in my show. I say, love, and I'm pointing to like God, I'm like, love wants to pour itself out into you, but you can't receive love if you secretly hate who love made you to be.

Because you're, because you are the only container that you can receive love in, and if all you're trying to do every day is trade love. That out and this is a whole conversation about comparison. I was like, love always falls flat. And I had some guy was like, yeah God, is love, but love is not God.

And I'm just like,

Kate Shepherd: Okay, Yeah.

Scott Loves You: you that? Because a lot of people, at least in the tradition I grew up in and talk, they want to talk about a book and how they, interpreted the book. And I'm like, Oh, the book is never meant to be opaque. The book just points to an experience.

And I said to him, I was like, Hey, look, I'm I've met God. I really have. And God was nothing but love. the same experience with love is God. So I don't, so I'm comfortable saying that. And I don't need to argue with you because I was like, I actually, maybe your response is you don't know what you're talking about because you deeply want to know what that experience is.

And you probably were told by some more controlling institution, like this is how we need to think about things versus your own experience. What's your experience. That's like what I want to, I'm always like, don't tell me what somebody else told you. What about you?

Kate Shepherd: Yeah. What do you

What do you know?

Because for

me, knowing knowing is so powerful and

scary. I don't know, do you, have you ever felt like In your meditations and your curiosities and you're dipping your toe into the mystery of it all. Have you ever felt like you're approaching something that's scary? Is it scary? Like that love? Like to me, I feel like I approached a level of that love that is just so enormous that I find it terrifying. like

little Kate there's little Kate and there's big Kate spiritual Kate and little human Kate, ego Kate and little human ego Kate is like really scared of the mystery and

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: the answers.

I'm yearning, my being is yearning to go back into that love that I know I am, but I'm also like, but it's too big. What will happen to me? I'll, I won't exist anymore. And then I just, so I shut it off. And actually I wanted to talk to you about what happens for the people who are, so surrendering to the voices that are not necessarily healthy, negative talk and who are it is too late and it is I don't have it in me and, or this existential crisis is how do you navigate that stuff

Scott Loves You: Yeah. Yeah.

Oh I think if anything with age, it's the invitation to know your smallness. And, it's, another path of humiliation, but it can be, it's supposed to be freeing. It's what leads you to be like, I don't care anymore, but not in like the. I'm mad and I don't care.

That's my defense

mechanism. It is

is,

Kate Shepherd: do you surrender without not caring anymore? How do you, surrender without giving up?

Scott Loves You: yeah. I, I have some notes and I'm also still in the midst of that too. I do think that, and this is maybe a thing we say to ourselves to comfort ourselves, but death is the final blow to our belief that we're separate from everything else. We need to go through that in order that we can live in connection, whatever's past that.

So one of our main obstacles or things that we're always overcoming and that the voice of love brings us into is like That I, the illusion of separateness. And sacredness is really finding connection. And that's why I believe in art making and in speech making and in joke making because I think it is a liturgy of solidarity.

And it is, a very sacred act in that. Now, the, our particular incarnation is going to give a particular solidarity. And so the work. Because what comparison does, and we live in a culture of

comparison now. Massive culture of comparison, and it's literally killing us. But, our, this is good, this is like I'm writing the show right now.

It is, Taking your life and making something out of it is the act of creating sacred solidarity. And it's your, what you've been through, what you've seen, what you think is interesting, what you think is funny, what you think is sexy, what you, all those stuff.

That becomes healing., so like right now I know that I've, I tour and people come and see me, but In my, in Portland, there's a great storytelling community called The Moth, which is nationwide, and I've just been going to every moth every month, and I try to write a story, and I try to submit it, and so far, every story I've submitted, I've gotten called and done, and it is a really fun and humiliating process,

but it's good. I have a friend who runs a comedy show in LA and he was like, Hey man, I got a slot for 10 minutes. I'm spending my own money to fly down to LA on Friday to do 10 minutes of comedy.

Cause it's like my dream to do standup and it's, I don't expect it to launch my career, get me on a TV. It's, just it fans the flame of giving a shit about my life. Cause I'm getting older. There are, limitations because

I'm a dad. I'm a parent of young kids for only a certain time of my life. And it happens to coincide with at the time of my life where you tend to be most successful. So I feel this tension and juxtaposition. But I don't want to give up on my dreams and aspirations because that is a sour gift I would give to my kids If they thought like they stood in the way of me trying so I have to work that tension out But I'm often like what is it that you really want to do?

And then can you here's so here's a trick and can you be? Flexible with how you define that So I never was in a band. I never played in a band and I never You did a concert. So is that not accomplishable? I have a friend who's just playing with other people in their forties and fifties in their garage, in their neighborhood. I've been like, how would you define a band? How would you define a concert? Cause if

you're willing to, if it's gotta be like at the Coliseum with this many people in this many instruments, I don't know, but if it could be like recorded tracks with a group of your friends and you got some lights and you made up a thing just for the fun of it just try, it's how do you want to define it?

So I'm, trying to get really in touch with the things that I feel like I missed out on or whatever and go how would we rework this? So I don't think I'll be a tour nationwide touring comedian, but it's cool to do 10 minutes. The thing in LA or that, that kind of stuff. But it, I feel also the despair of Not being able to do something and then makes me want to watch Netflix and give up and stuff. So I, fight against it.

So it's, really what is, the desire here? And is it, do I really want it? And then what, how would I play with that and then set something to accomplish that? That's, like what I'm working through, but yeah, it's, I think one of the hard things in our society right now is we're really privy to all kinds of human lives, how they've unfolded.

And some have had. spectacular successes. But at what other cost . I'm very skeptical of only seeing one side of people's public lives. Cause I see a lot of people who are my age who have, a lot of money and their, life looks very glamorous and stuff like that.

But I'm with my kids every day, I'm on a trip. I'm around. I'm not saying the actor Ryan Reynolds isn't around, we're the same age. I don't, I'm not saying he's not around his kids, but I don't know. I think when you're making a movie, you probably don't see your kids very much.

Kate Shepherd: Yeah.

Scott Loves You: you know what I'm saying? I just, I, and I, there's people I know who like their, relationships fell out or they had to, I don't know. I just, I think it's just what is it that you really want? What do you really

Kate Shepherd: Well, and coming back to that gratitude piece, like what is actually here? Cause I struggle with that. I've often felt

like from a very young age, I had this feeling like I was supposed to be like serving a lot of people like that millions of people would know who I was and I would be really helping

and Who knows where that came from?

Maybe there's, some divine in that and that's still on my path and it's coming,

or maybe that was

just like some sort of ego way of helping me survive. Who knows? Like I actually

won't know. Right. I won't know. Yeah.

but but I have always, it has felt like, I guess if I was going to put words to it, I would, I've always felt like I was made for more, than

what I appear to be doing right now. And that

has caused me a lot of. discord in my body, right? Like I want to

resolve that. I want to, and so

I wanted, I'm looking for things, but then I I also have kids who are school age and, there's a whole bunch of grief and joy that goes with that too, right? On a day to day basis of wanting to be here so that, cause I know it's fleeting.

I know it's all happening so quickly and I want to be here for that. But I also, like you said, this is the time that I'm supposed to be building my thing and my how do I, yeah.

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: But what I keep coming back to is just falling in love with what is, can I fall in love with what is, which is what you're saying, right?

This is what

you're When you're going to saying yes to that opportunity in LA saying yes to the little, invitations that you're getting on your Friday morning walks, that, falling in love with what is, I think, is What we miss when we are looking further afield, when we're trying to make the, we're letting ego drive the car and we're like, Oh, I

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: big thing. You're actually missing the big thing

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: just reflecting back to you, like how wise that is that you are just doing those little things and saying

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: things. Because from here, where I sit, looking at you, Funny because it was before you even mentioned the stand up thing. I was like, I had this little hit.

I was like, this guy's supposed to be doing some kind of like Netflix comedy TV show where we're talking about feeling the feelings. And I just

Scott Loves You: Mm

hmm.

Kate Shepherd: I can't even articulate it. It was so fast,

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: you don't know what you're saying yes to. When you say yes to the, you think you might just be going on a weekend to LA.

It could be the thing that. the motion, thing in motion that isn't even, doesn't seem connected. And then two years from now, it all comes back. Who would, we just have to keep saying yes to what feels right.



Kate Shepherd: Yeah.

Scott Loves You: agency and then I was laid off seven months later because their own financial problems, nothing I did wrong.

And in that, Oh no, I had some really strong visions. Of what I was supposed to do next. And I, had a sense when I was like, what am I supposed to do? And I sensed God say, I want you to be quiet. And then I want you to work on this workbook that your friend had given you like nine months ago, and it's been sitting in a drawer and I worked on this workbook, which is like telling your own story.

And there was some really profound images that came out of that. And then I was like washing dishes. My first week of being unemployed and I started having these like visions. I, saw myself like ki doing like a show and I was like in interesting. And I kept getting these visions and I was like, I think I'm supposed to be like looking at one ads to get a job, but it feels the divine is saying, I want you to write a show. And I was like, okay, I have bills to pay. So if you want me to write a show, you got to take care of them. My richest friend was like, Hey, I know you're in a hard spot. Here's a check. Which paid for a month. And an old employer was like, Hey, do you know this rapper?

And I was like, I do. And they're like, can you make a video with him and we'll pay you this much. And I was like, yep. And that paid for two months. So I was like, Oh, bam, there it happened. And I was going to do this event in Pittsburgh and a friend of mine. There ran an art gallery and she was like, Hey, why don't you use our space and do this show there?

So I did this like work job. And then in the evenings for three nights, I did this like one man show in this art gallery. Trying it out and, then there's so many other things where I felt like, What I was being asked to do was like raise money for six months and be supported so then I could do this stuff without Having to worry about selling tickets and stuff and I did but I Started doing shows for four people in their living room in their house for five people at a cafe so when I meet people now who are like, I want to get into what you're doing i'm like great get four people in a living room and because the universe is just like Hold on this guy He wants to, look, come here.

He says he wants to try to do something. Let's see if he, let's see if he's serious.

And then they're like okay, wait, five people? You didn't give up? What if six come the next night? okay, Hey, I think he's gonna stick with it. Let's give him like a few more opportunities and see the universe wants to know if you're serious.

Cause there's plenty of people who just are like, I want the crowd, but I don't want the place from within the place to speak to the crowd. And I had to earn that, I remember I was having a dinner with this comedian. I know. And he was telling me, he goes if you're a comedian and you do your own tour and around 175 people come to your show, he's that's a lot of people.

You're in the top 10 percent of working comedians in the nation and I was like damn 200 people show up at my show So I guess i'm in a top 10 comedians top 10, you know say I was

like, oh wow, this is all of a sudden happened but I had to Do the I had to walk the path of humiliation to go.

I want I have think I have something to say piece it together Learn how to tour i'm not a comedian, but i'm not like here the other part You for me was like, I'm not a comedian, meaning if you are a comedian, there's a network of comedy clubs set out throughout the United States and Canada, and you can put yourself in there and go around.

I'm not trying to be a professional religious person, meaning there are churches and organizations and nominations that you can put yourself in there and go around. I was like, I want to do comedy. Comedy and spirituality. I want to do sacred moments and dick jokes. And so I Was like, where do I perform?

And over the last few years i've had to find like bars and art galleries and performing art spaces Some sacred spaces some comedy spaces to find out where my stuff fits and then and i'm and I travel with christmas lights and I travel with things to decorate a room in order to make it a thing and It's fucking hard, but it's, I love it at the same time.

I was Visiting my parents up in Seattle during Christmas last year, and I was meeting a friend for coffee, like December 28th this little town called Edmonds.

And in walks a guy named David Bazan. David Bazan is a musician. He's been doing it for 20, 30 years. He's not the first person to ever do this, but he really trailblazed this idea of if you get enough people to sign up for, to buy tickets, I'll come and do house shows.

And he started doing these like touring of house shows around the nation. And we've met before it had been like a decade since I seen him, but he walks in and he's Hey Scott, I didn't even know he remembered my name. And I was like, Hey Dave. And he ended up sitting with us. We chatted for two hours, but I had this question about like, how do I keep doing what I'm doing? I asked this question. I was like, how do I keep doing this? And then the one person who I would respect in telling me how to do this, walked into a coffee shop and sat down and had coffee with me.

And I remember I talked to him and I felt so loved after this moment, I was like, you're paying attention. But I asked him, I said, Hey, I gave him the scenario. It's like this, and I was like I just, want to curate the room that I want to be in. And he's just dude, that's it. He's you just got to keep doing that.

Just make the room you want people to be in. That's your work. And it was like the pep talk I needed at this unexpected time. Wasn't in charge of it. Wasn't, I just asked, I just said, I need, I don't know how to keep doing this. I need some encouragement. I have this question. And then the answer was so wonderful, but Kate, as I'm thinking through this, it's I started doing small things, and I kept going. I would spend time visualizing myself performing at like a theater. Because, here's the other thing is sometimes you want something, but then if you get there, you're like really freaked out about

it.

And so I, I had, I was, I would spend time practicing the spaces I ended up wanting to be in. I would go, what would it feel like to be

there?

, Oh, it'd feel like just how it feels now, which is I'm with myself.

And do I really think of, do I really believe in what I'm saying and what I'm doing and what do I want to do and how do I want to be there? And then I'd imagine leaving and getting in my car and going to a hotel room all by myself and being like, is it worth being gone? Am I just going to get drunk again in my hotel room?

Because I'm like all by myself. Do I want to be by myself? Is this, what do I want? I want to speak, but I don't want to be alone. I had to like,

and then I lived through these things and, those are trial and error. I've, been drunk in a hotel by myself a few times. Out of boredom, out

of trying to come down.

I was just talking with a friend, I was like, what is Taylor Swift's post show

routine. What is she, what is her life like? Cause three hours, like she must burn like 6, 000 calories for one. And I was like, how does she go to bed without getting drunk? I don't like, how do

you come down from that? Do you go to sleep the next day at 10 AM to get up and do it?

I was

like, because my simple humble show would knock me out, but knock me out the next day. And I it's like learning those. Anyways, that's that's getting into my practice and doing stuff. But you know what I'm saying? It's

like the, I think you have to just go, what is it that I really want?

This is what I was getting to besides the visions. A little later on, I was about to turn 40 at the time. And I was like, I think I've always wanted to be a performing artist. And I, if I don't try to do that, I'll always regret it.

And I was like, I don't even know where to start with that. I had to develop these like spiritual practices, mental health practices to go I'm on my way. I can be a contribution and you just got to let the idea of who you think you should be die to, to get to what's actually happening.

And those are the things I, and I kept reminding myself and I would go, you're the timeline is a lot longer. But won't come to see you overnight.

But if you put your, if you try to do something for 10 years, it would probably grow,

Kate Shepherd: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Loves You: So what is it like to build for 10 years? It probably doesn't mean drop everything and start. It might be like, You phase out your work and you start building this other thing. And so there's things like that, that I had to like kind of practice

Kate Shepherd: it's just a journey of, it's really important to do that self reflection piece around, is this something I even want to be doing? I love that you asked yourself, do I want to be a that means I'm going to be away.

It's not just the show and the crowd and the cheering. It's like that in the hotel room and then the being away from home and we all have our own version of what that means. Some people might be considering, you leaving their job at the credit union to go and be a painter full time. Do you really want to schlep your canvases to a farmer's market tent every weekend? Think about it all.

Scott Loves You: I don't, I see that. I was like, Oh, I don't want to do art shows at

all. Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: and not to

Scott Loves You: but some people

do.

Kate Shepherd: it, but it's so important

Scott Loves You: Yeah, what is it exactly? What is it you want from

it? Yeah. yeah,

Kate Shepherd: you can set it up in different ways. You can set it up so you don't have to do art shows if you, even if you want to sell your art. But you just have to think about how, which steps you want to take and then take those steps

And which

Scott Loves You: Yes, yes. How do you take those steps? And maybe it's trial and error. I'm practicing painting again. I have some paintings over here and they're awful and

I'm actually going to cover them up. I'm going to cover them up for the second time and try again. Cause one thing I learned, so I, did have this really interesting decade of my life where I was a live painter.

That's where I got Scott, the painter meaning I would. I didn't grow up charismatic. I grew up Lutheran who like doesn't talk about the spirit It's and and yet the spirit led me to just I would see images and then I, and it led me to just like paint images in front of people in settings, church services, concerts, conferences.

So for a good decade, I was like a traveling, Live painter it was one of the greatest jobs I've ever had I worked at a An amazing church community in houston, texas where I got to be the artist in residence at this church I got paid money to be an

artist in a community and to Help the community and spiritual formation through creative practice and nobody asked me to do this, but I paint I made a painting every service every weekend.

And we had five services a weekend. So I made a four foot by three foot painting five times a weekend for three years,

Kate Shepherd: wow.

Scott Loves You: But what I learned by making the same painting five times is Oh, and I'll say this to artists if they want to critique, I'll be like, what would it be like if you made this painting three times?

Because you made it once and you're like, eh, is it good or not? It's I don't know. Make it three more times, who says you only can make a painting once? Like the masters used to make practice paintings

before they made the big paintings I know that the practice it's not about One time am I good or not?

It's like I don't know do it five times See you don't know what your fifth version of a painting would be it I have this joke in say yes that i'm really proud of it took me 90 times over three years of doing that show until I found the joke

Kate Shepherd: Your, voice, as a painter, and I'm thinking about like visual artists, you're hitting something there with doing it more than once. Cause I think we do a painting once. I'm like, okay, now I have to move on to the next thing. It has to be original.

It has to be different. There's, I could imagine. Your voice would emerge when you did something you'd start to see what's the common thread in all of these iterations.

Scott Loves You: Yeah,

Kate Shepherd: That's what's trying to come through me Because sometimes you can't even see or hear or know what's trying to come through you because you're so close it is you it's in You and it's really hard to know to recognize it.

Scott Loves You: absolutely. Absolutely. And there's a myth that people are just, I am not an artist. And it's like, how do you know that? Being an artist is less about innate ability. And more about your ability to make something greater than your innate ability. I'll give you an example. If somebody came to me right now and said, draw me a tiger, like right now, I could make a fun and whimsical, yet not anatomically correct drawing of a tiger.

But if somebody said. Come back in an hour with a drawing of a tiger. I know how to put together a drawing of a tiger. I know how to find source material. I know how to gather materials. I would I know how to do practice and set up to then orchestrate and execute a drawing of a tiger.

It's not about what you can do innately. It's about learning the ability to build something bigger than what you can do innately. few people are really good at making a speech off the top of their heads. You But all of us can work on a speech and write it and practice it and edit it and then memorize it and then do it.

Everything is a learned skill. So as

Kate Shepherd: Yeah,

Scott Loves You: an artist, it's to be an artist is to know how to make something greater than what you can do right now. so you don't even know if you're an artist or not, cause you've never put yourself on that journey to do it. Everything is a learned skill, everything.

but I think the people who become quote unquote artists are the people who are haunted by it, who won't let them go. And then they just get

really focused and they Go over and over again. So they make that practice a part of their daily life. And then that's how they, build into it.

So I think just being an artist is dedicated to the process of learning how to make something bigger than yourself.

Kate Shepherd: Yeah it's an agreeing to collaborate with that, that, which is doing the haunting

long enough

to create something that wasn't just haphazard, fluky. My first one was great. Couple of paintings were great. And then I started doing some really crappy paintings and I was like, wait, what happened? Sometimes there's there's, it's an up and down and the, commitment to going through the. the dark stuff too so that the good stuff can come out

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: Yeah.



Scott Loves You: . I was having a real funky day.

this,

Kate Shepherd: do you feel pepped? Do you feel a bit more pepped up?

Scott Loves You: There was a few things that came together that I was like, Oh, which is death is the ultimate blow to your belief that you're separate from everything else. And then, and so that's the necessary, that's the necessary doorway to enter into something. different than what this is. But what sacredness is the invitation to that connectedness.

And so the act of storytelling, or taking your life and turning it into something, is the sacred act of solidarity. It's using your life and experience to create connection. It's part of dissolving that separateness And that and I was like, oh, that's Okay, I don't know if i've heard anybody say that but I was like that's helpful for me and thinking like why would we do this?

Kate Shepherd: I felt it

Scott Loves You: and Yeah

Kate Shepherd: I watched that solidify for you, and I felt, it. So yeah.

Scott Loves You: I came across this book. It's called The Death and Resurrection Show. From Shaman to Showbiz. It's out of print. You can

buy a copy for 800, but I found a PDF.

And I printed it out, and I traveled with it on airplanes, and I took tons of notes. And this historian, Rogan Taylor. I don't know why it's out of print. It's. The best book I've ever read, in some ways. This historian, Rogan Taylor, can I tell you this? Do you

gotta go?

In every human civilization ever, there's always a person who emerges as the shaman, the healer.

in the community. It's like there's always a person that comes into, in the midst of the community who becomes the healer. And it's the person who has to go through this three tiered initiation. So one is they are given some kind of intense illness. It is physical, but it can be mental, psychological. And if we imagine a three tier, tiered metaphor of existence that I was referencing, that illness pulls them into the underworld where they are destroyed.

Good. Chopped up into pieces, thrown in a vat, destroyed. And then Parker Palmer, the Quaker author, says that's where our illusions, our egos, dissolved. And then a power greater than them brings them back together. They briefly experience the ecstasy of the heavens and they come back to their life.

The second stage is, having gone through that process, they must apprentice themselves with somebody else who has gone through that process. Process in order that they may figure out their own way to integrate it and express it. And even though culturally, It has different expressions throughout the world, it's always the same stuff, which is, you have to make your own drum, make your own beats,

make your own mask, make your own vestments. Because the third way that you become, and this is how you become the healer in the community, is you put on a show. You show the community that you know the language and the conversations behind everything and the powers. that are there and you know how to manipulate it. And this person has taken many forms throughout time from hunter gatherers to potlatches to sweat lodges to clowns to traveling minstrel groups to magicians.

And he's like modern show business is ancient shamanism. It's putting on a death and resurrection show. It's Beyonce. It's James Taylor. It's johnny Cash, grew up in poor rural Arkansas. He saw his brother died in a horrible accident.

He wanted to get out of there when he was, when he graduated high school, he joined the Air Force, went to Germany, hated it, wrote some songs, came back, started a band, found San Phillips at Sun Records, played him some songs. He was like, that's not your songs. Then he played him Folsom Prison Blues. Johnny Cash never got to prison.

Played him Folsom Prison Blues. And he's that's the song. And he became the man in black. Because he could pantomime his time in hell, he could speak to the ecstasy of the heavens, and he creates a death and resurrection show, a healing seance in his concerts, in

his albums, and stuff

That, this book answered a lot of, or gave me at least a, I had a lot of questions, and it gave me like a through line on what that was.

And I think where it's been leading me is going Not everybody's going to become a shaman. Not everybody's going to become a healer. Because that process is, it's so intense. It's, it leaves the person. It makes them an oddity. It might make them like, David Bowie. But, you have to ask yourself, do you want to be David Bowie ?

That process is something we all are going to have to go through whether we like it or not. And as an artist, I was like my job is to take my questions, my pain, and then turn it into something.

Why do we tell stories?

What is the power of storytelling? What does it do to us and I have lots of thoughts about that. Like what is scripture if not human beings going I went through something And here's how I thought about it And then by telling the story, it's helpful to our community.

So I was like, it's good to know how to tell your story because you're just doing what people have done throughout time. It's like you went through something and you're trying to make sense of it. And that becomes healing to others.

You're telling your story is initiating the dissolving of the separateness that we all think that we're in. And your life, your story becomes the liturgy of solidarity. It becomes like the practice of finding the connectedness.

Scott Loves You: This what is a podcast is a collection of moments of solidarity like it's people their story and then finding hope and connection or a piece that you needed to move forward in your own life. You don't listen, you listen to a podcast. It's entertaining, but it's also It's expanding, right?

That's why I listen to

people is because like I'm trying to, I'm trying to find the next piece or the next step and hearing their story helps me find my own story.

Kate Shepherd: Yeah.

Scott Loves You: reading some Frederick Buechner and he goes, the reason I am even telling my story is because if I tell my story, if I practice trying to tell my story, might find your story in it and it's worth doing for that.

Kate Shepherd: yeah.

At the end of every episode, I ask, the billboard question if you had this magical billboard that everybody in the world who is struggling with the list of all the negative beliefs I don't have it in me. It's too late. I'm too old. I'm too poor. I have bad luck. All the collection of those stories. So this is for that person who's just really ruled by those negative beliefs. But you had this magical billboard that you could put

Scott Loves You: Yeah.

Kate Shepherd: on and it would, words would have the power to reach into their heart and help them realize that stuff wasn't true. What would you put on the billboard?

Scott Loves You: Can I put, does it have to be words?

Can I do anything.

Kate Shepherd: anything. It's a magical billboard.

Scott Loves You: It's a magical billboard. Here's what I would do, when it, somebody looked at this magical billboard and they would just, it would be a beach with the ocean. when they looked at it in. And like a Harry Potter style where like the tent is small but inside it's big. Just by looking at it, they would be able to sit on the beach and experience the entire rotation of the tides in that one instance.

And in that one instance, seeing the entire movement of the tides, they would realize that everything changes. Everything eventually changes. It just goes very slow, but it's always changing. And so whatever moment you're in, whatever place in your life you're in, it's changing. And because I think for me the biggest argument for self destruction is this miserable place that you're in you're never going to get out of it.

And that fuels my depression the most. And so it's the, but when you see, if you can see the entire scope of the tides, which takes time, like if you were to sit there, it would take you 12 hours to see it. But if you could instantaneously know that experience, you'd be like, everything is changing. I can change.

I'm not stuck in this moment.

That would be my

magical billboard.

Kate Shepherd: have to say that might be my favorite billboard ever. And

Scott Loves You: Yes.

Kate Shepherd: I'm not just saying that. I'm not just saying that. Okay. You're amazing. I've loved this conversation so much.

Scott Loves You: Okay, that's very kind.

Thanks. I've loved it too. Let's do it

again.

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