Follow, Listen, Rate & Review (thank you!) in Apple Podcasts
Subscribe & Listen in Spotify
Subscribe & Watch clips on Youtube
OR listen in your favourite podcast app
Instantly unlock the growing library bonus content including weekly bonus episodes, guided meditations, worksheets and journal prompts and support Kate to keep making this show, become a Patreon
EPISODE SUMMARY & SHOW NOTES
Episode Summary
In this deeply resonant episode of The Creative Genius Podcast, Kate Shepherd sits down with intuitive painter Lisa Wagner to explore the transformative power of creativity in times of grief and healing. Lisa shares her inspiring journey from an accounting career to becoming a celebrated intuitive artist. Together, they discuss overcoming fear, reconnecting with intuition, and the vital role of creative expression in processing emotions and building resilience. They also delve into embracing imperfection, rediscovering one’s creative spark, and the importance of community support for personal and artistic growth.
Key Points
-
Lisa’s journey from accounting to art and her rediscovery of creative passion.
-
The healing power of art and its role as a survival tool in challenging times.
-
The importance of connecting with intuition and quieting external noise.
-
Overcoming limiting beliefs and embracing imperfection in the creative process.
-
Building resilience through failure and using creativity to navigate grief.
-
The role of community in fostering connection, accountability, and encouragement.
Reasons to Listen
-
Discover how to overcome fear and limiting beliefs about your creativity.
-
Learn actionable steps for reconnecting with your intuitive voice.
-
Find inspiration in Lisa’s personal journey of healing and artistic growth.
-
Understand the role of creativity as a tool for emotional processing and resilience.
-
Gain insights into fostering a supportive creative community.
Activities Listeners Can Do
-
Sit with your soul and say, “I love you. What would you have me know today?” Journal the response.
-
Dedicate 15 minutes to an intuitive painting session, focusing on the process rather than the outcome.
-
Reflect on a past failure and reframe it as a valuable lesson.
-
Seek out or create a local or online creative community for support and encouragement.
-
Try a Kintsugi-inspired art project, highlighting imperfections as beautiful.
Inspired by this episode I created The Soul Connection Journal Ritual a brand-new addition to the Creative Genius Patreon Library that’s designed to help you begin—or continue—building a deeper connection with your wisest inner self, your Creative Genius.
This part of you is an incredible source of courage, resourcefulness, and wisdom. It’s the voice that can offer you guidance and answers when you’re feeling lost or unsure. The steps in this ritual will guide you gently but powerfully toward tapping into this inner wisdom, so you can navigate your creative journey—and life—with more confidence and clarity. If you’d like to access this journal ritual and start unlocking the gifts of your Creative Genius, head over to my Patreon. You’ll find it waiting for you there, along with other tools and resources to support your creative process.
TRANSCRIPT
Lisa Wagner
===
Kate Shepherd: [00:00:00] I'm so glad that we got to finally figure this out and meet up today. So thank you for, for making the time
For people who are joining us and hanging out with us for this hour, who don't know you at all yet, maybe you could just start us off by telling us a little bit about who you are and your work in the world.
A little glimpse into your magic. Uh
Lisa Wagner: Wagner. I am an intuitive painter. I primarily do watercolors, but I'm starting to kind of really enjoy doing my acrylic work more and mixed media
Kate Shepherd: huh.
Lisa Wagner: because I think there's more that explore on that. And I'm really Enjoying that. I also am an instructor. My favorite thing to teach is intuitive painting. It helps people heal. So I've made a workshop, uh, the art of releasing, cause I help you release the stuff you've been chewing on. That is no longer serving you. Trying to be a leader somehow, and like even a small capacity to help our world start to heal and come back to something more centered and loving. [00:01:00] And I'm a mom of two kids, and I have a second granddaughter on the way. And
Kate Shepherd: Congratulations.
Lisa Wagner: I know, so thank you.
Kate Shepherd: Ah. Hmm.
Lisa Wagner: ever. And it's great being a mom, but grandma, you know, there's not a lot rules you have to adhere to.
Kate Shepherd: I was talking to my friend, Terry Lynn, the other day, who, Terry Lynn, if you're listening, hi, and thank you for bringing this to me in that conversation because it's been resonating with me for days, and she was sharing with me about orcas. So I do these pebble belly necklaces. These are like little beach stones from the beach where the orca whales, they travel out of their way to rub their bellies on these beaches.
And it's like the art that I was put on earth to make. And so Terry Lynn and I were talking a little bit about those and. And just about the like moon and magic and our creativity and, and she was telling me about how orcas are one of the only other mammals on earth where other than humans, where once our sort of reproductive value is over.
we don't just die, like our bodies don't start, like we actually live beyond [00:02:00] that. And the matriarchs and the orcopods come back and that whether they had children or not, they helped to raise the, the next generation. And like, there's just, I've just been thinking so much about as I go into and I'm thinking about just like, what is my purpose?
And what, you know, what does the world even need me anymore? And that stuff's so biological and deeply embedded. So I just love the lighthearted way of like, you know, entering into what you're talking about, having grandchildren. Yeah. It's magical, but also like, there's a deep purpose for you there. And I just, it's cool.
It's something to look forward to for those of us who are, who haven't gotten there yet.
Lisa Wagner: It's the greatest thing ever.
Kate Shepherd: you originally, again, I think I got this right. You originally majored in accounting and business.
Lisa Wagner: What was I thinking?
Kate Shepherd: I mean, you know, you were thinking what all the rest of us were taught. Do you mean we're kind of taught to do these things?
And for some of us it is our passion, but for some of us it isn't. So I'm curious, how did you find your way in to such a rational minded vocation? And then how did you find your way out of it?
Lisa Wagner: I did very, very [00:03:00] well in math in school because it's, me, it's, it's black and white um, but did terrible in science. And, um, my dad knew that I wanted to be an artist and he's an accountant and he said, you're really good at math. You know, this whole
Kate Shepherd: Uh huh. I know what's coming.
Was doing his best. Like, I know that we all know that. I like, I just want to say to the dads and to, you know, even the moms and the aunties and all.
Um, in that generation, and even in this generation, and even the parts of us that echo those limiting beliefs, that part of us is really doing its best to help us survive. So it's not, they weren't, it was an awful thing that they did to us, but it's an awful thing that we're collectively creating when we continue to perpetuate these beliefs that we don't get to do the thing that brings us joy.
I just want to say that we're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We love how they tried to, those beliefs and those people even are trying to help. But so you ended up going to, uh, county school or how did, what, what it [00:04:00] was your, what did that look like?
Lisa Wagner: um, the local, community college Monroe community college in Rochester, and I cried every day in the parking lot. Um, it was horrible. Like, if I even think about it, I, I come to tears for that 18 year old kid who
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: Didn't know what she was doing here. And then the worst part was we had this really, really sweet professor accounting 101 and tax accounting, Mr.
Sardone, who was doing a per diem. And he said, can I see in my office after class like, okay, calls me and he goes. What are you doing in this what I it makes no sense to me that you're in here I said, I want to be an artist, but my dad said I can't make a living and he said Well, I see where he's going with that.
But I mean, I'll do the best I can to help you and Right there, I'm like, what am I doing?
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: doing this? But I ended up with an associate's degree in it. And then I went on to [00:05:00] a SUNY school and I am 1 semester still to this day away from a bachelor's degree in business management because I mentally could not take it anymore.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: it was hard.
Kate Shepherd: So from that moment at 18, at the beginning of that arc, sitting in the parking lot, crying every day, having teachers recognize that that's not where you should be. How did you push yourself to go through those? How many years was that? to get the degree.
And what happened to you during that time?
Lisa Wagner: um, I had to make up some other classes because I wasn't doing well in them.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: which I
Kate Shepherd: Did
Lisa Wagner: I'm just getting run over by the rest of the horses. I would have students sitting next to going girl.
I don't know why. I don't know. I don't know. And, um, in the cafeteria at the community college right off of it. Was the art classes and they'd all come in with those really big [00:06:00] newsprint thing, you know, pads of paper walking past me and they looked so happy broke my heart. Just broke my heart.
Kate Shepherd: you do art at home during that time? No. Yeah. Yeah. So
Lisa Wagner: out my studies. Hardly at all. I was going for help all the time. It just, it was not clicking, but it's so funny. I did the books for our business for years and. I had some of the best books that the, um, New York state tax auditor said he's ever seen because we ended up owing nothing and he had to make something up.
So I knew what I was doing. I think it was just like, cost accounting is like watching paint dry, know,
Kate Shepherd: what woke it up for you? What happened?
Lisa Wagner: decided that once my son was born in 95, but I just needed something. And I was always like doodling at the desk while I was doing the accounting and, and they were good little doodles. [00:07:00] And I missed it. I just missed it so much. And so I decided I'm going to try taking a night course through continuing education. And I ended up in this class with the most. amazing, lovely person I've probably ever met, Judy Soprano, ended up being my mentor and she calls herself my second mother.
Kate Shepherd: Oh,
Lisa Wagner: fine with me. She's adorable. I love her so much. And she found on the saddest looking watercolor, which I chose because you can have those out and not have the kids get into them.
And you can like walk by and put something on it and then keep doing dinner kind of thing. . So, I had chosen that and she walked by my piece and she goes, Oh my gosh, and it was so bad. She says, look at that little spot. I swear to God, it was like the size of a dime, but I had left the white of the paper and I made a daisy out of it.
And she's like, isn't that delightful.
Kate Shepherd: oh,
Lisa Wagner: That's beautiful. I know. And that's all
Kate Shepherd: yeah.
Lisa Wagner: And [00:08:00] in high school, I had a really awful teacher where we had this huge room with two sides and he made it one side for the people with talent and one side for the people without. I was on the without side.
Kate Shepherd: What? How
Lisa Wagner: Like, how is that a thing?
Kate Shepherd: is that a thing? How did he decide? Like, was there a test in September, or?
Lisa Wagner: well, no, actually we had really incredibly talented people in our class and that's what they wanted to do and be. And I think he also knew that my probably had no desire to send me for art.
, it made me feel like my art wasn't worthy that myself as a human being wasn't worthy. And I was already bullied in school. Incredibly badly to the point of, not wanting to be here anymore. So, to just have that happen, and it makes you shut off so many things, but to then go into this class of Judy soprano, [00:09:00] find this little dot. When you've been waiting for somebody to notice your little dot for so long. That was it.
Kate Shepherd: she saw the light in you, and she showed you the light in you. And I love that it was so tiny. And that is, that is what a beautiful gift to have these angels in our life. Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: Yeah.
Kate Shepherd: then what was the, what was the kind of the next steps where you, cause I mean, you've stepped into, I mean, you teach and you're, I mean, this is your whole, your whole existence now.
You really broke through all of that, all the ways that life tried to hold you back. People tried to hold you back. , here you are, you know, despite it all. How did that happen? What were the big things you had to overcome? What did that process look like with little kids?
And it sounds like you had little kids while that was all happening too.
Lisa Wagner: Yeah, I'm fortunate because the kids were five years apart and not intentionally It's just the way it worked out So that really is kind of nice because then you can have like space with each of them and you know When somebody's [00:10:00] napping you don't have another one running around So that was very helpful for me and my husband is like, We've been together since high school.
So it's been forever. And he just really loved that part of me and really encouraged it all the time. So, um, he would help make space for that a lot of times to,
Kate Shepherd: So it was stepping into a practice, , you had to make time. You had that moment with your teacher and then you,
Lisa Wagner: Yeah.
I started taking classes, um, in Rochester. There's an amazing gallery, the Memorial Art Gallery, and they have really great classes with amazing teachers, and, um, Edwina Farnand became my next teacher. She's, I don't know where she is now. I wish I knew, but she, um, got really upset with me because she's like, I don't know what you're saving all your paint for.
Kate Shepherd: Hmm.
Lisa Wagner: I'm like, why? And she's like, you're so timid. Why won't you put down color? And I was so afraid of ruining it because that preciousness thing that we all get
girl, there's more paper, you know, there's more paint in the world, but [00:11:00] I just was so afraid I'd ruin it, but I was ruining it by overworking it and having it be dull and muddy. And so she made me take her collage class in order to get through that. And I thought I was going to claw my eyes out and that thing. And then I got this really amazing collage one day. And she goes. My dear, you've got it.
Right there. So now you're going to take my watercolor class next time.
So I took that and the next piece that I did ended up getting into a national show.
Kate Shepherd: It was all right there waiting to bust out the whole time.
Lisa Wagner: Yeah. Isn't that something? I,
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: all have that no matter who you are and whatever your creative practice is, it's all just sitting. It's so patient, isn't it? How it'll
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: wait for you.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah. Forever.
Lisa Wagner: but in general, yeah,
Kate Shepherd: It's always, it's the fabric of who you are. It's, you can't, it can't be erased. No matter what you go through.
Lisa Wagner: and when you ignore it, how miserable.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah. Will you talk to me a little bit about your relationship to [00:12:00] intuition?
Lisa Wagner: That came from Judy Soprano too in a way, but I've always had it. I could always feel like a presence around me all the time. As a kid, I couldn't sleep. an insomniac , I found out at the age of 54 that it turned out I had ADHD, but, uh, never, know, nobody ever diagnosed it because we were the last generation of girls. And I would just sit and look out the window at night and I could feel a presence with me all the time. And I would just ask, show me what it is I'm supposed to be doing. I, cause I don't know. That I belong. I didn't feel like I belonged here because I felt so different.
I don't know if that's relatable for people or not, but
Kate Shepherd: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Lisa Wagner: like, why did you make me come here? decision? Like, did I decide that? And I could feel, no, you have a purpose. You have a purpose. You have a purpose.
Kate Shepherd: So you could hear it? You heard when you would sit there and you would put that question out there. How [00:13:00] did it, how did you hear it? What, what was that like?
Lisa Wagner: like this really gentle, soft, like it reminded me of like, when you're like my, uh, Italian grandmother, when she would hug you and yeah, they draw you in and they just, I don't know, they just wrap you up in them. And that's what it felt like. It felt warm like somebody was holding me in a way that I didn't get particularly, in my household. Because, you know, everybody's stoic back then I don't know, it just felt felt so supportive and I knew that I did have something to offer. I just didn't realize how patient I'd have to be to get there.
Kate Shepherd: I'm thinking about the person who's listening to this going, well that's really nice that you got to hear that voice. I've been sitting staring out my window my whole life and I've asked that question a thousand times and I've never felt that hug and I've never felt an answer and I don't know, like am I doing it wrong?
Am I listening wrong?
Lisa Wagner: yeah,[00:14:00]
Kate Shepherd: would you say to that person?
Lisa Wagner: it's always present. . I think for everybody, it shows up in a way that will work for them that it's, um, It's so individualized. I also think we get into like this hyper manifestation kind of thing and hyper wanting hyper desire and we never shut up. We never shut up. And how many times do you pray without saying anything? Like we say, I want, I want, I want, could you please, could you please? And that comes from a place of lack of a place of abundance. And I don't know why, know, a young age, I just knew. That that didn't feel great having that lack feeling all the time that I wanted to feel abundant. And I wasn't always receiving it at home, and not that they were bad parents or anything, it's just, it wasn't what I needed, and so I [00:15:00] knew, I think maybe because we grew up, we went to church every week, and I really did believe in something bigger than me, um, and in angels, and, My connection to nature always felt really strong that when I could ground myself and just be quiet and just accept things, that's when things started showing up.
Kate Shepherd: That's such a hard nut to crack for so many people. Right? Like it sounds so simple. Like just be, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of us know how to ask the question.
And I think you've just said this to know how to ask the question. Um, but we're not really taught how to listen or, , and , this is how my, my undiagnosed ADH brain works. , I'm just reminded of this story of spiders, you know, this is the time of year when the spiders are all coming in, at least in my neck of the woods, they're all coming in from the outdoors.
There's so many spiders in my house right now. And I don't have [00:16:00] a fear about spiders. I actually really love them. But my kids are, my, my daughter in particular is like, get it out of here. And the instinct is often actually kill it, not from her, but like, you know, the knee jerk reaction can be just get rid of it.
And there's this really beautiful old myth around. If you find a spider in your house, and you, and you set it free outside, you get to ask it a question and then it can answer you. It can like answer a prayer kind of thing. It can, but you have to be listening. So you have to ask the question and then you have to spend the next couple of days, like.
leaning in and straining to hear what this spider who's now out in the world is going to tell you. And I feel like, because I've struggled with this, you know, please show me what I'm supposed to be doing. Please show me, you know, how do I make sense of, I'm interested in so many different kinds of art.
You know, before I met with you today, I drove an hour to the next town to go and buy clay and tools. And like, I always knew pottery was coming [00:17:00] for me and I've just been kind of holding it at arm's length. But I can't anymore. And so, you know, but I'm like beating myself up a little bit. Cause I'm like, Oh my God, like clay.
What, how does that make sense? How do I fit that into the whole realm of my creative world? Which is already packed the gills of, so I've often felt like I ask questions and don't know how to hear the answer because it's, it's almost like learning a language, would you say? Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: yeah. Yeah. And actually, um, Blondin, who's on the insight timer meditation app, says in one of her meditations, so your heart has been talking to you and you couldn't hear it. would happen if you just said, I love you. What would you have me know today? And just sit in that.
Kate Shepherd: That's beautiful.
Lisa Wagner: in it for like five minutes. It's a really simple, easy one, and just do a breathing exercise.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.[00:18:00]
Lisa Wagner: that's it.
Kate Shepherd: And it's all right there.
Lisa Wagner: yes,
Kate Shepherd: yeah.
Lisa Wagner: it's all right here for
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: It's all right inside of you. You have everything you ever needed. It's just, I think it's hard for us to believe that we are good enough and that we are perfect enough that do have everything we need. And we are just so beautifully packaged, you know?
Kate Shepherd: Especially when we're raised in classrooms where, you know, the good artists are on one side and the bad artists are on the other. And that goes with every single thing, whether it's soccer or piano or ballet or math, or, you know, I was, I was, not good at math. Like I just wasn't good at math. And so I was dismissed nobody's going to put any energy into teaching me math because it's so frustrating because my brain just can't think that way.
And it's not a surprise to me that we end up not trusting ourselves
Lisa Wagner: Well, And especially as women.
, let's [00:19:00] face it. I think men are afraid of our power and that's why there's patriarchy. Um, and misogyny is because I think we're in touch with so much more and there's so much power behind that that when we start living our truth and not caring about the conditioning. And breaking free of it, where you start finding it, and you get the momentum for it. And the more you do it, the more, I don't know, the more it's like you're actually living in your light. And you're damn proud of it.
Kate Shepherd: Mm-hmm
Lisa Wagner: Damn proud of it.
Kate Shepherd: But before that, we're quite fearful of the light. All of us. I mean, not, it's not just a male female thing. Like it's not, I mean, I think a lot of women are scared of our own, our own light. It is a really, 'cause it's so bright and
Lisa Wagner: Yeah.
Kate Shepherd: not, we're not, you know, our, our matriarch and system and that's not their fault.
But we, they just weren't taught how to help us navigate. This huge light.
Lisa Wagner: Yeah.
Kate Shepherd: It's not their fault. They weren't taught either. But now I think we're at [00:20:00] this precipice in our own, the times that we're living through where that light, I mean, and I've, before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about this is where you and I are sitting down a couple of days after the U.
S. presidential election. Very fresh right now. And, There are, you had referenced in just our chat getting, getting, getting going today that you've had a lot of direct messages from, from people and you're seeing a lot of, and there's a lot of conversation just out there about what's going on and the despair, the confusion that a lot of people are feeling.
I'm Canadian. I'm up in Vancouver. Uh, And I'll tell you, as Canadians, we are very concerned about, about what's going on. I run a small business. A lot of people I know run small businesses and there's all these threats of tariffs. And I mean, it, it, it affects us too. Um, but there is a lot of fear and a lot of confusion and sadness and so many feelings that so many people are feeling.
And even just with my, a bunch of, , listeners and [00:21:00] some American friends, I've had quite a few conversations over the last few days. around hope. And you know, they, I don't know if anyone's heard this, but a lot of Canadians are being approached kind of funnily as being, will you be my emotional support Canadian?
You know, as we walk through these times,
Lisa Wagner: nice. We're 10 minutes from Canada.
Kate Shepherd: I know
Lisa Wagner: nicest
Kate Shepherd: we are nice.
Lisa Wagner: know that you really
Kate Shepherd: We are nice.
Lisa Wagner: up to Ontario here. do because we're 10 minutes from the border. So we'll go to like, or Kingston. Kingston is
Kate Shepherd: Kingston's wonderful. Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: Isn't it amazing?
Kate Shepherd: It is a great town. Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: and, know, people hear our accent and they'll know we're from New York
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: and they'll say, oh, you're from New York, aren't you?
And I'm like, oh, you're from Ontario, aren't you? And the closer they get to Toronto area, there's a definite, you
Kate Shepherd: Yeah, you can hear it. Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: But I know Canada has gone through a lot of stuff right now too. And
Kate Shepherd: Well, yeah, I mean, the world, I think the [00:22:00] reality is that, that we had, that we had a good stretch there for a little while, , as humanity, you know, and before technology took over and we had all this consumption and there was waste and we were hurting the planet. Like, there was a little stretch there where it was kind of cool to be humans and it looked like we were figuring stuff out and we were civil and we were having, you know, medical advances and like things were looking good.
Yeah. Then we kind of did this derail thing that we are in now, and I talk about, and I'm sure you've heard me say this, how humanity's glitching, that's kind of the meaning I've made around it. And I've always said that it's because I feel that it's because we've, we've systematically shut down our connection with our knowing.
That thing that you're talking about, that presence that you feel. that it's the intelligence that animates the entire universe. Some people might call it creativity. Some people might call it God or love or the divine or whatever. It's that, it's an undeniable presence. Whatever, you know, the Sufis wrote about, you know, like it's been since time began, we've known what this [00:23:00] thing is.
It's this ineffable thing we can't really put our name on. And what I wanted to bring to this conversation today was just a little bit of light around There's so much despair and confusion that people are feeling and hurt and, and, and
Lisa Wagner: Yeah.
Kate Shepherd: and concern for safety and legitimate things, right?
And I think it's really important to underline that, that knowing that presence, that light, that love, it can't be extinguished. And that's not what's happened here. We're not glitching because our light went out. We're glitching because we've obscured our light with something else. And it's just a matter of recalibration.
And yesterday, which was the day after the election, I woke up, I mean, I stayed up as late as I possibly could looking at the results and it was still not in yet. And I was like, you know, I have to just go to bed. I was tired and I needed to go to bed and I woke up in the morning and I was hopeful.
I mean, I shouldn't have [00:24:00] been, but I was hopeful. And I looked at the results and of course like that. And so, and then I was just like bumping into, um, I made cup of tea and I went and sat down and then I stood up and then I was bumping into things in the kitchen and I was just like very disoriented and like, Oh my God, what do I do with myself today?
I can't focus on work. I can't get, I don't think I can get anything done. What do I do? And it took me until about a quarter of the way through the afternoon to realize that what I needed to do was art. That is actually, I needed to let myself not worry about my to do list, not worry about thinking about my business in 18 months, what's going to happen and all, you know, what is going to happen to, you know, trans rights in the United States are all like female, like reproductive medicine, like all the things that you can worry about.
Uh, I couldn't, I had to let that all go in that moment and come back to the thing that I. love, which is this collaboration with creativity. And it struck me [00:25:00] that in these times, doing our art is not a frivolous thing. Like doing our art is actually the medicine that can walk us through and out of the glitch that we're in.
And there's such an interesting, so I wanted to talk about the limiting belief we have around allowing yourself to do something that you could, that you think of as frivolous during a time, during a dark time, because it is a very, it's, and I think you're probably getting a lot of messages from people about like, what do I do?
And how do I, you know, and I, and I've heard from a number of listeners, people writing it to me, just saying, well, I just, I actually feel like I, I can't let myself make art right now. Like that's not, that's wrong. Like we actually feel like it's deep wrong. What is that? What?
Lisa Wagner: my heart.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah, so tell me what comes up for you when I share all that.
Lisa Wagner: A couple of things. Don Kimes, I heard him, on another podcast, not that [00:26:00] long ago. And he said, you know, when it comes right down to creativity, isn't a luxury, it's a survival skill. And I went, Oh, like angels, you know, you start hearing angels and I went 100
Kate Shepherd: What's his name?
Lisa Wagner: percent right. It's creativity is not a luxury. is a survival skill.
And then in listening to the concession speech yesterday. And how she, um, did a quote at the end and I wrote it down because I don't want to screw it up. , and this is something a historian had said, and I couldn't find who the historian was, but, and it's about the law of history says only when it is dark enough, can you see the stars? So she said, let us fill the sky with the light of a brilliant billion stars. And of course I cried my eyes out.
Uh,
Kate Shepherd: Yeah, I'm crying right now. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:00] Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: and I thought for sure she was going to win. When you see these long lines and you see the goodness in humanity and we ended up with the antithesis of the goodness and, you know, then you go. Okay. So why? Why? And I think there's always a why somewhere, and I don't think we always, get to know it in the timeline we want.
The universe gives it to you when we're actually ready. I think the why is because many of us haven't been shining our light. So what did you think was going to happen? We've been numbing out with our phones and with a million other things. And like, you know, whatever your thing is, mine sometimes can be like Cinderella work. You know, like I can't leave that dish in the sink. Cause God forbid, somebody should think my house is a mess, you know, [00:28:00] What's the, there's some value in that, but there's much more value in me showing up in here and doing my work or teaching my class because I can see that it brings healing into the world.
And it's the value. I mean, you can't put a number on that. You can't, whereas with the, you know, somebody, I could pay somebody a couple bucks an hour to come in and take care of my dishes. Anybody really care your house is neat or clean? What I care about is I want to see your creativity playing out in the world.
I want to read that really great book. I want to go to a museum and look at that art that just like, Get your inspiration and your juices flowing and just like excited, you know, or walking in nature and , Seeing the pretty leaves all scattered everywhere in all different colors and also how nature is talking to you during that.
And then noticing that that's to me where it comes in the art of noticing. So when you are doing [00:29:00] that, take a moment and notice, how do I feel? I guarantee you're going to feel better having done it. Guarantee you'll feel grounded and centered
Kate Shepherd: How do you pull yourself back from moments of, because we, you know, of course we can all go for walks in nature and we can all have time in our studios where we're doing the thing that we love, but there are moments I think that we all have where we're like, Oh my God, doom and gloom, right? Like that little bit of a spiral.
How do you navigate that? Cause we can't live in a world where we're not acknowledging, you know, there are people, there are activists out there and I can't, I used to be an activist for a living and I actually had to leave that
Lisa Wagner: Wow.
Kate Shepherd: world behind. And I did it for almost 10 years. I was in marine conservation and my job was to.
yell at people about how important it was to save the ocean. And I did some really important work in that world, but it was also exhausting. It was [00:30:00] exhausting. Um, and my job was to make, you know, try to fight, like my job was fighting and as a highly sensitive person, I couldn't, it just wasn't sustainable for me, but we need people who are doing that.
And we, or we need to all take a turn doing that, I think, or whatever version of that ends up looking like, So, but my, I guess what I'm pointing to is we need to not ignore the bad things that are being done in the world. Like there needs to be, because one of the things that I, that came up for me with the election results was just like, are there no checkpoints in the, in their system?
Who's, where's the accountability and who's managing that? And like, we need, and I, you know, I trust that they're incredibly smart. good hearted, strong people in the United States working so hard, right? Working so hard.
Lisa Wagner: Yes.
Kate Shepherd: there needs to be that side of it is all I'm saying. I guess I'm rambling a little bit, but there needs to be that side of it where we're not in la la land about like, Oh, just make [00:31:00] art and you know, everything will be fine.
Cause it, no, it won't be like, you know, you need to have that strong feminine energy of like, no. With how do you balance those two those two sides of paying attention and being acutely aware of what's going on and also Letting yourself be in your light and express your light because sometimes they seem like they're opposite sides
Lisa Wagner: Well, they are. And we got, we've got dark and light in
Kate Shepherd: Yeah,
Lisa Wagner: but that's what's allowing the light to shine. But for me,
Kate Shepherd: yeah, yeah
Lisa Wagner: So I think having someone that you're accountable to incredibly helpful, especially if they're artistically minded.
So I think find an art buddy or creativity buddy is really, really helpful. If you can't, and everybody at this point can do therapy, because there's sliding scale and there's like, there's so many different ways. You can get it. And I know a [00:32:00] lot of people say art is my therapy. It is, but it doesn't, you know, it's not helping you with maybe childhood trauma or, you know, your inner family stuff or generational trauma and, you know, Having a skilled person for me has kept me from spiraling, especially because I lost my sister unexpectedly.
You're so kind, you know, because we had to reschedule because of that in June and I'd lost my mom the year before it was just a lot in a very short period of time. And she and I had just started to have a good relationship again. We were Irish twins uh, we were really close as kids, but then, you know, as we grew up, um, we had a lot of competitiveness stuff and, made some really horrible choices.
It was too hard to be around that we finally got there. And we were three weeks in, three weeks in to really doing well with that. [00:33:00] Was heart wrenching. And if I didn't have my therapist, Jamie, who is like, my goddess. I And my husband and amazing friends and like my students sending me cards bringing me flowers Checking in with me every day like having that that sweet tribe of people who will hold you up when you can no longer stand I think it's important like you being, you know, a person who's going out and fighting for something that you're passionate about. Eventually you will have that burnout knowing that there's somebody else now who had already taken the time to just take a time out from that. They can now stand up for you. It's okay. It's okay to not be okay.
Kate Shepherd: It's okay to take turns yeah, yeah
Lisa Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. You can't do and be
Kate Shepherd: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: like, imposter [00:34:00] Cinderwise, is anybody letting me teach him today? Why, why are they even listening to me? Because I'm a mess today. But some, there's still like little gems in there and they're learning from you because you're being vulnerable, right? And your vulnerability is your most beautiful part.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: That's and our art is percent vulnerability.
Kate Shepherd: How did your creativity or your creative practice change around the time that you lost your sister? Did it, did you find yourself shutting it down? Did you step more deeply into it? Oh, no, I stopped it probably for six weeks,
Lisa Wagner: which is short for me. My husband was really sick for a while. And we had a business we were running, and we had employees and, and I shut that down for a couple of years. And And he was so sweet and finally said, look, you need to get back to doing that because this is what you need.
He built me this studio and everything, and I had a great studio. He helped me with when we were in Rochester and, just knowing [00:35:00] that it's okay to take time away from it. If there's just times you, you probably know, especially cause you're, you've got little kids. You cannot have one more brain cell to make something that day.
And it's okay. It's okay. Today's just not the day, but make sure tomorrow you check in again.
Kate Shepherd: Then when, and when you, when you do start having a little bit more time, I find even just giving yourself a little, some, because what I struggle with is like, Oh, I'll be really gentle with myself and I'll say, it's okay if you don't do it. And then there's that darker part of my ego that comes in and goes, Oh, great.
Let's ride this wave. We can totally cut her off from this. If we just like tell her it's okay not to do it.
Lisa Wagner: yeah.
Kate Shepherd: And we'll just be, dress it up and all, and then, but you know, six months later you realize you've totally, you've spiraled, you're in depression now, you're, because you, you kept telling me there's a balancing act to be had between like being gentle and having some discipline.
So maybe during that like intense acute time, you're [00:36:00] gentle, but then, okay, can you do 10 minutes today? Can you just, wet a paintbrush and low pressure. Can you, you know, how'd you find your way back into it? What? So it was like six weeks of not doing anything.
Lisa Wagner: Yeah.
, my therapist and I worked through that together and she just give me like, every week she gives me a new assignment at the very end. We the last 5 minutes is. Okay, and you can anybody can do this and you don't need your therapist to do this pick a day and a time. That is like your constitutional time period end of story at 3 o'clock that day, whatever you pick. Okay. So what are you going to do for the next week? Like, maybe on a Sunday? am I going to do this week? And, and this is like a hard and fast thing that you really are committed to, to honor that creativity and to honor your heart. What is it that you want to do for that? Because I don't know, she has really helped me understand that that's the work that we're here to do is [00:37:00] honor what our heart is asking of us.
And usually it's creativity or something creative practice wise and using our talents because the world needs it. Like it's begging for it right now, right?
Kate Shepherd: Yeah,
Lisa Wagner: for art. It's begging for these beautiful books. It's begging for music. I thank God for music. And when you don't do that, you deprive the world of something so beautiful.
It is worth those five minutes on that one day to say, okay, is what I know I can manage. then she'll have me pick a couple bonus things. Like, okay, so if you could do those, what would be the bonus things, like, what's the gravy part that you could do and like, girl, it's good. Okay. And then she like, you know, and she keeps digging a little deeper.
Okay.
Kate Shepherd: I love it.
Lisa Wagner: How long would that take yet? You know, I'm like, okay. So then we put a little time thing next to it. She's like, okay, so you probably got a little more time. What does it feel like to you? If you think you [00:38:00] can do that number 1, and then what have you accomplished at all? Do you feel like you have more energy to do that other thing?
We've been talking about that. You haven't done yet.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: for 10 minutes, like, I'm going to say no to being able to do 10 minutes like, yeah, I can do that. I can do
Kate Shepherd: And then you get into it and you're like, I don't want to stop.
Lisa Wagner: I know my husband will go, you know, dinner's been ready for 30 minutes. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm sorry. I'll be right down.
Kate Shepherd: I was just in my studio before, so I went to the pottery store this morning, and it was so fun to look at the wall of clays. They have little samples of all the different kinds of clays and what they look like when they're fired and all that.
And I went through them all. And I just listened to my body telling me which clay I wanted. And be like, no, it's not that one. It's not that, Oh, it's this one. And the girl was like, well, that one's a little bit. I'm like, no, I'm sorry. It's this one, you know, like listening to it and then coming back.
And I was in the. I was in the studio just for a few minutes and I'm trying to figure out how to, I want to make masks. And so I was trying to figure out like how to [00:39:00] shape the face and I'm talking to the face and then this like face emerges and I was like, Oh my God, I love you. And I was just lost in the, in that, in the flow state, you know, talk, do you talk to yourself in your studio?
Lisa Wagner: all day. All
Kate Shepherd: Oh good.
Lisa Wagner: Thank God. There isn't like some, I don't know, the fly on the wall thing. Thank
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: thing. Right. I know
Kate Shepherd: Yeah. Okay. Good.
Lisa Wagner: a long time ago,
yeah. But you know, to me, that's interesting. You're choosing clay because do you feel like you need grounding right now?
Because it's an earthen material.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah, probably. Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: it is something how all that stuff
speaks,
Kate Shepherd: having, an interesting experience with it because on one hand, I feel like I already know how to do it. You know, like even though I've not really worked with a lot of clay, I do make jewelry and it is like mini sculptures and I've worked a lot with wax over the years.
And so there's like, I do know how to sculpt things and work in 3D, so it's not new. [00:40:00] But I've not ever worked with pottery clay like a, you know, okay, we're going to go get a kiln and we're going to do glazes and we're like, I haven't ever dove into it that way. But it's interesting because yes, I want to feel grounded, but I'm also really irritated by how messy it is.
And I think there's something in there for me too, around like,
Allowing myself to just be like literally covered in mud.
Lisa Wagner: Yeah.
My students want things to be pristine and pretty and it should be pretty, like, Through the whole process, and there's always that awful, awkward, I call it the awkward teenage phase
Kate Shepherd: Yes.
Lisa Wagner: we all, I don't know what is going on.
You pray to God. Nobody's taking your picture during that entire time period. That's that that's the precipice of the greatness,
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: Of you, turning that into a swan and that is great that
Kate Shepherd: Yeah. And actually, sometimes there's,
there's something really important alchemically happening [00:41:00] during the ugly phase. So I was thinking about this in terms of, so my, my clay masks as an example. So I'm making the foundation of the face and the clay is still quite wet and, you know, it doesn't have a lot of structure to it yet.
And I was trying to attach the nose to it and it was just like the face kept caving in and it was like, but I wanted to make the nose perfectly and then attach it to the face perfectly and have it all. But I can't actually, what I need to do is make the face, attach the nose, have it be messy, have the seam where the nose attached.
And then I can go in with different tools. It's not every moment is ready for you to take your work to the next stage. and that is very frustrating because we want to be in control of it but actually sometimes there's chemistry or alchemy happening in the hardening of the paint, or in the hardening of the clay, or in the [00:42:00] thoughts that get to bubble about around your writing, that need that space, they need that time.
And then, then you can come in and clean up the mess. But if you try to clean up the mess after you've dumped out that first initial draft or whatever it is, right then and there, sometimes you just end up making more of a mess. And I think a lot of us get stuck there.
Lisa Wagner: And how funny too, because you're using clay, but I always tell you're making mud. You're
Kate Shepherd: Yeah,
Lisa Wagner: because you
I always joke with my students. How would you pay for all those supplies? Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a lot. How about you let them do their job then? It would be like paying an employee 30 an hour, but you're doing their work for them.
do the work.
Kate Shepherd: Okay, say more about that.
Lisa Wagner: so with the intuitive painting stuff, , with my students, I have them pick like 3 to 4 colors and just, it could be house paint, whatever it doesn't matter and put it on there and keep moving your canvas around and hitting it with water, but leave it alone.
Let it start [00:43:00] doing its own thing. And then you can start to see how is it shaping itself? And if I don't like that, you know, sometimes you just only need to turn the canvas. So the canvas and the paint are working together as a unit. just kind of a vessel for that. And, and I've had people like the things that show up on it always mean something because you, you allowed, it's like the allowing is the hardest part.
Because it's vulnerable, right? and like, certain brushes do certain things and certain paints will behave certain ways and, and the chemical reactions that they're having that we're always trying to like, why are you manipulating that all the time? And why not just let it be? Why not just let it be and let it do its thing. Um, or like, you know, you're really expensive papers. They're meant to do it a certain way and you're scrubbing the hell out of that paper. What are you doing that for? Why? Or like mixing the heck out of [00:44:00] it. Why not just give it a little, know, just a little, and then watch what happens. It'll be
Kate Shepherd: How do you,
Lisa Wagner: more interesting piece.
Kate Shepherd: How do you teach one of your students how to, because that's a skill. Like that's a skill you got to learn. You have to learn how to collaborate with the materials rather than try to dominate them. When you watch a master at work, they're not, you know, they're not in control of everything, but there's a certain amount of mastery and they know how to back off.
They know when to step away. They know when to take their hand away. They know how much pressure to use. You know, they know how to tilt the canvas, all those things. How do you teach people how to hear that, that knowing? Uh huh.
Lisa Wagner: Or I'll grab their painting from them, which usually is a little jarring at first, and then I'll stand on the opposite side of the studio here, and I'll say, can you tell me how it looks now? And they're like, oh, my God, that's really good. Yeah. Yeah. [00:45:00] Stop touching it. And we joke around a lot about it, you know, and the laugh about it it is part of it is being able to make fun of yourself that you realize, you know, the noticing of, oh, geez. Yeah. I just, I just tried to beat that thing to death. Didn't I? Yeah. A little bit, but it's okay. That's part of the learning.
You know, I remember asking Judy Soprano, , how do I know when I'm done? And she said, sweetheart, let's leave that alone for a few minutes and dig into why do you want to put more down? Or why do you want to add a new color? That's nowhere else in that entire piece. And if it fits, that's great. But if. It doesn't harmonize with anything else, there's no going back with it. I think it's worth a moment of your time. And it's funny when you do that, instead of feeling like the piece has to be done by the end of class, or it should look a certain way, removing the expectation. And the preciousness of it, it's like it calms nervous system and you can breathe again, because I think you forget to breathe. I think that's a [00:46:00] lot of it, you know, just always noticing, always checking in, giving yourself a minute. Hey, know what? I didn't move to a different side of this paper, the canvas and, or to a totally different piece give that a minute to breathe. And I'm going to revisit it instead of pressuring yourself into making a masterpiece, because, you know, a lot of times they aren't masterpieces.
Sometimes they really stink. It's okay.
Kate Shepherd: There's a certain failure rate in any, in anything, even if you bake a batch of cookies, there's always going to be that weird one that crumbled at the end or that had a crack in the middle, or there's a certain failure rate in no matter what you make. Yeah. What is the, what are the kind of feelings that you're pointing to?
You teach a lot around intuition and, um, and releasing. I, and I think those two things are really interesting to kind of put together. What, what kinds of things are you trying to point to? to inside of people to help them understand how to navigate both of those two [00:47:00] things it's too much. Oh, Kintsugi.
Kintsugi? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: back? Where are you beating yourself up the most? And where are you feeling these inadequacies? Like, where, like, where do you feel it in your body? What did you notice you were doing today that didn't feel good? And was the first time you remember doing that? And I'll always point back to something, usually in your childhood or young adulthood, and I'll say, okay, so how long you've been doing that for, and it'll be ever since it happened that one time, right? And then if you really. You know, some people you can't reach.
Some people get really upset during it. I've had people like storm out of class because they're just, and it's okay. They're just not, not ready. It's not their time. But if they're [00:48:00] ready to talk about it and be vulnerable about it, then you start getting somewhere with it. You start to see their little crack in there and where the fear is lying in that and to let them know they're not alone in it. That's look, we've all been there. Everybody goes through that stuff, and I'm standing next to you to let you know, you're, you're perfect the way you are. So how can I help you feel better about that? But what can you be doing also? And is there something, you know, I find out what can I help facilitate, but the end of the day, it's, it's this person's choice. If, are you ready to do it? And if so, what does that look like to you? Cause everybody's so different and certain things speak to. Certain people and other things don't, um, and especially with watching, like we were saying before, like the election and, a lot of it, um, to me, as we've lost a [00:49:00] curiosity about one another, we just judge and that just as an internal thing, because we're judging herself so harshly because we want to look like that perfect girl on Instagram and who's got the, she's not only perfect looking, her artwork is perfect and her, you know, marketing of it and she did it all on Canva and it looks like for the love of God, please. It's too much. It's too much. So it is. So when do we let ourselves off the hook? Right? When, when is what we're doing is enough and, um, and to be okay with that imperfection. Cause that's where your beauty is. That's where the. The growth is like, Japanese culture where they'll put the gold in the cracks.
It becomes more valuable. You're pretty little gold cracks. That's what I want to know about. So how did you get to this point and asking each other questions and having compassion for one another and empathy for that and being willing to stand next to them and check in with a little bit.
Like after a class, I'll check [00:50:00] in the next day with them then, another day during the week and then we'll revisit it again the following week see, , how are you doing with that? And I think just by letting it out into the open again to let it breathe and get some air has allowed us to start to heal, , and allows you to take even just that millistep farther to know you're okay and everything's going to be okay.
It's all going to be okay. And you're building resilience too. And how beautiful is that?
Cause how, you know, as a mom, you're always trying to take that away from your kids. Cause you know, I don't want them to hurt like I did,
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: they need to hurt a
Kate Shepherd: They need to hurt. We need to hurt. , we need to have not everything work out. I actually love the struggle of, and I'm just going to go back to the masks because they're right in front of me right now with the clay. I'm really enjoying the, there's a particular thing I want to create and I can feel it, but it doesn't [00:51:00] exist yet and I have to figure out how to do it and I'm failing so much along the way.
And I love it. Like, I love the, it's like a treasure hunt. Like, how do I make that look like it's cracked, but also be flat and not be squished and like, you know, whatever it is that you're trying to do. Like there's a, there's a, there's an effect that I want to create in my work and I can't find it out there in the world.
No, I can't. I've asked, I've gone to like three different pottery stores. I'm like, how do I do this? And everyone's like, I don't, and my pottery class that I'm in right now, the teacher's like, I don't think you can do that. No, I can. I know I can. I'm going to figure it out. I love that.
Lisa Wagner: yeah
Kate Shepherd: the failure involved in that is there's so like, it's, it's almost all failure right now.
Lisa Wagner: I
Kate Shepherd: Yes.
Lisa Wagner: is.
Kate Shepherd: yeah. And I think there's a previous version of me that would have been like. impatient and I just want to get it done and I just want to Master this and figure it out and operationalize it so that I can sell it and survive and all the right all the things But this is really just for me Like this is probably the first kind of time i've ever done artwork [00:52:00] It really is just i'm not even thinking ahead to can I sell it?
Do I want to sell it and those thoughts creep in but i'm like, no, no, no That's not what this is about and I have to say i'm really enjoying the failures here there's something to be said for allowing yourself that, that grace or a window or an arena where you, where you can not only fail comfortably, but where you can fail enjoyably.
Lisa Wagner: out loud. right? You can out loud.
Yeah.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah,
It's wonderful. It's great.
Lisa Wagner: Yeah, it gives me chills when you're just talking about that because I have like the ugliest paintings back behind a chair Because I don't want to look at them and then once in a while, I'll break them out and go, oh my gosh Look how far you came
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: idea I was doing in some of
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: at, like, I still have all my paintings from when I was a kid and my drawings and all my worst paintings and I will break out my very first painting that Judy Soprano said, look at that little dime
Kate Shepherd: Oh,
Lisa Wagner: say to him, this was my first one. [00:53:00] It's horrible. They're like, oh, my God, it's great. thank you for placating me. It's really sweet, but it's terrible. And so what now look at my pieces. There's so
Kate Shepherd: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: afraid I was during those, then I kept going and then I'll show them the next 1 and the next 1 and the like, oh, like, yeah, so I failed the whole way along the way, but you failing. Kate is doing this is allowing you now later on in the future for somebody else to say, I don't get why that's happening. You are the leader now for that. How exciting is that that you get to help someone who's struggling because you've been there done that and you can empathize and have compassion with that, but also help move them along to like that to me is divine guidance.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: I can't get enough of that stuff. Makes me so excited.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah, and it is definitely missing from our, our lives. Like we don't give ourselves, [00:54:00] everything is so easy. I remember when I was, you know, my twenties and I, I mean, I've always been an artist who's made a lot of different things. And I remember like wanting to try mosaics. I mean, honestly, it's a little ridiculous.
I've done everything. Like I just, there's not an art form that I haven't. Tried. But so I remember living in Ottawa when I was in my early twenties and wanting to do mosaics and like looking on the early internet, um, for tools. And like, I remember it just being so much harder to get things even in the last 20 years.
Uh, and it's just, that has changed so much now. And we're, we're never really allowed to be in moments where everything's not solvable immediately. You know, everything is instantaneous, solvable instantaneously. There's actually something really wonderful about being in problem solving mode. And I think that's also part of the glitch.
Like creativity is a lot about problem solving. And we, it's a muscle we have to practice and it feels. So good to practice that. I think that's what I'm talking about. The failing too, is just even practicing that problem solving muscle [00:55:00] curiosity gets to be there. And that like pioneering spirit of like, well, what about this?
And the act of like discovery, like I haven't discovered this thing yet. There's this anticipation that you get to feel, and it isn't just like, I want something and two seconds later, I have it like there's so there's enough of that in our life. There's enough of that in this world.
Lisa Wagner: Yeah,,
Kate Shepherd: I have two, there's two more things that I, my kids are going to come tumbling in the door any minute now after school. It's early dismissal day today, one of them is at the end of every episode, I do what's called the billboard question. I'm sure you know it. I ask, but I'll repeat it for anybody who's just joining us today for the first time. If you had a billboard where, , everybody in the world who, this is a magical billboard, by the way, and everybody in the world who felt any of these limiting beliefs that we've talked about today, you know, feeling like they belong on that, the bad side of the classroom, or they can't make it as an artist, or they don't have anything good in [00:56:00] them, or it's just going to be an endless stream of failures.
There's nothing good at the end of all the fail. Any of the things we've talked about today, we've talked about so many amazing ones. And that they're just feeling like they're really in the tractor beam of one of those beliefs, but you had this magical billboard and the words that you put on this could help address and go right into the heart of that person and help them free themselves a little bit or just create some spaciousness even maybe not solve it overnight, but create some spaciousness for that person around how that belief is holding them.
What would you put on the billboard?
Lisa Wagner: Well, you know, I did have one thing before, but after listening to Kamala and her concession speech, it totally changed it. I came up with, , this creating is your contribution to the starlight in the darkest of times.
Oh, that might be my favorite billboard yet.
No way.
Kate Shepherd: Oh,
Lisa Wagner: and
Kate Shepherd: thanks Kamala.
Lisa Wagner: [00:57:00] inspired that,
She's amazing. Yeah. Right. Because she's she's telling you that you you are because I had originally you are the magic because you are
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: are the magic you're looking for. You are the magic the world needs. But then she said that and I'm like Oh, this is next level. That's
Kate Shepherd: She also said something about, um, sometimes the fight just takes longer than you. Than you thought, or, I'm not, I'm terrible at paraphrasing things, but she said something about, and I love her, not gi, like she's not giving up that she didn't lose. She's still, it's still happening. Like it's still, it's an on, this is an ongoing, we're not done yet, is kind of the feeling of like, oh, well there was that and this is a, a mess and we're gonna have to figure out how to navigate it, but like, we're not done yet, you know?
Yeah.
Lisa Wagner: Oh heck. No
Kate Shepherd: no, we'll never be done because that's the thing is that underneath it all is this love, is this creativity, is this intelligence and even the darkest of people and times aren't immune to it. It's in everything. So, yeah, it's a [00:58:00] little obscured right now. The,
Lisa Wagner: And I think the dark. Darkness is always challenging it all the time to make sure that you have the resilience to do it that you have the, um, not staying power. I forget the word I see ever since menopause. Like, I can't remember
Kate Shepherd: I know, same. We're going to do a whole episode on perimenopause and menopause in the next little while. Cause yes, it affects a lot of us and our creativity.
, and I think you alluded to this a little while ago, um, without the darkness, we actually can't see the light. Like this is a relational universe and not only do we need each other to bounce things off of, but we also need dark to see the light and vice versa.
So. Yeah. None of it's bad. It's just out of balance and it doesn't feel good when it's out of balance. So we're this, this whole thing right now is where we are in our history. I feel is just, we are the generation that's tasked with a big recalibration. We, and we need to step forward and animate a lot of the things that have been hiding in the dark shadows for too long, a little bit too long, just to create some balance, we're not trying to [00:59:00] annihilate anything.
We're just trying to balance things out. That's my take on it.
Lisa Wagner: Your job. I think sometimes as an artist and just as a human being, if this is, you know, something you decide you want to take on those corners that are so dark.
Our job is to shine light on them. You might hate what you find back in there. It's probably going to need a little 11 and some cleaning up. But, you know, we've been doing a lot of cleaning anyways. So we're, you know, As we're procrastinating looking at the corner, got all the skill set you need. Why wouldn't we want to shine a light on it?
Kate Shepherd: Yeah,
Lisa Wagner: Why wouldn't we, you
Kate Shepherd: that's yeah.
Lisa Wagner: better for my kids and my grandkids.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah,
Lisa Wagner: I
Kate Shepherd: same.
Lisa Wagner: for them and they deserve better. Don't do it if it feels like drudgery. If it, what gives you joy to work on to make the world a better place?
Kate Shepherd: , so usually I do this before the show, but I was called today to do this after our interview while you were here, and this is my little, my little heart shaped bowl of.
angel cards. I usually pick a word, , from every episode and it's kind of like the blessing for this, for this conversation. So I'm [01:00:00] just going to pick it right now and it can be sort of like a meditation for us as we close this episode and go on into our day, both you and I and also everybody listening.
, I'll tell you this angel deck, it's been with me for about 20 years and every single time I've ever pulled a card, it's like, How is, how, who just did that? What happened? Yeah. So the word I just pulled was birth.
Lisa Wagner: Oh my gosh. I've chills. That's so perfect.
Kate Shepherd: I know. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for coming. Thank you.
Lisa Wagner: Oh, thank you for having me. It's such an honor and I love this platform that you're doing is so meaningful and so powerful. I know it's hard. I know it's a lot of work, but I'm telling you, you are bringing so much light where it's so needed and it's a blessing that you can do that. It
Kate Shepherd: is. It's an honor to be able to do it. And it's funny because I met with, , a listener showed up at Granville Island Public Market where, of course, I sell my jewelry and my art, you know, during the week. , I've talked about her in a couple, in a couple of the previous episodes. And she reached out [01:01:00] to me wanting to help.
She's like, I hear that you're overwhelmed. I hear that you have a lot to do. Let's brainstorm some ideas of how, you know, maybe I could help you. , in those conversations about how she could help me, , maybe do less or have, you know, we had all these ideas and now suddenly I'm doing more
So one of the things I'm really excited about, and I don't know if you know about this yet, we're launching two different things coming up in the next little while. One of them is, we'll get a couple of listeners together in a podcast setting like this.
We'll record an episode where we talk about a previous episode because there was, what Lindsay was telling you is there was just, there's so much in each episode that is like,
Lisa Wagner: Yay.
Kate Shepherd: and feels like aha moments and is like, Oh my God, I could journal about that forever. And then you go off to your day and then you're on to the next thing and da da da da.
She's like, no, no, no. I want to be able to dig into this meatiness. How do we do that? So we've come up with this thing called Listener Lab. That's the listener, the Creative Genius Listener Labs. So we'll go back and we're gonna take apart other episodes in a conversation style episode. That's one thing and Lindsay and I recorded our first one about Scott Erickson, [01:02:00] which is really cool.
It's already up by the time you're listening to this. And then the other thing that we're doing in January.
2025, we're going to start doing, uh, it's called pod club. And it's kind of like a book club, but we're same thing. We're going to, it'll be just like whoever wants to come. It could be three people, could be 300 people, whoever shows up. We have a creative genius, a Facebook page where we'll initially where we're going to meet, but we're going to meet live, like as a community, cause there's All of these people around the world listening to the show, and they write to me all the time, and they're telling me what you just told me, but none of us are connected to each other, and it's always really bugged me.
Like, how do we, how do we create this community? And I can't do it myself.
Lisa Wagner: Yeah.
Kate Shepherd: So, um, so, We're going to do it together as a book club. We're going to get together and we're going to talk about, we're going to pick an episode and we're going to have questions to guide our conversation, just like a book club, but about a podcast episode.
So, I'm really looking forward to that and in fact, I'd love it if you wanted to [01:03:00] join us in one of those or even lead one of those in the new year and maybe we can stay connected.
Lisa Wagner: Yes, please. Yeah.
Kate Shepherd: Okay, so, uh, we'll talk, we'll talk after the show and, uh, and we'll figure out how to make that happen. , so many of us who are struggling with feeling isolated and disconnected and also a little bit lost. You know, this, we're growing and we're growing at a really rapid rate and we don't have people. So, necessarily most of us don't have people from our ancestry to show us how to walk this new path and to, we're pioneers right now.
So we really do need each other. I think more than ever before. So birth, what do you know? Like
Lisa Wagner: Birth. I love
Kate Shepherd: the birth of so many things. Yeah.
Leave a comment