Episode Summary: In this inspiring episode, we dive into Dr. Heather Penny's incredible journey from a former third-grade teacher to a leadership coach, speaker, and author. Heather's midlife crisis became an opportunity to ask profound questions about her purpose and passion leading her to return to the truest version of herself. Her realization that there is an abundance of research on how women in our society are often silently struggle emotionally and even mentally, "spiralling down" but a distinct lack of research on how to reverse this trend - finding ways to resolve this downward spiral for women became the driving force behind her work. Including going back to earn her PHD in midlife.
Heather believes that everyone has their own clarity, confidence, and courage within, and her mission is to help people access these qualities and begin the journey of "spiralling up." She encourages us to embrace our uniqueness and learn the resilient attributes and practices needed to stop spiralling down when challenges arise.
We explore Heather's transformative approach to helping people unhook from the fear-based paradigm and tap into spirit, creativity, and intuition. She shares invaluable insights on how to balance pursuing dreams with daily responsibilities and challenges the idea of five-year vision planning. Her personal experience of teaching piano and its unexpected alignment with her business journey is a testament to her philosophy about how living an intuition led life is where it's at.
Heather delves into the importance of addressing deeply embedded limiting beliefs stemming from childhood trauma and how her coaching work speaks to the spirit within us. She shares her top three methods for reconnecting with one's intuition and leaves listeners with a poignant allegory about a girl and her bracelets.
We learn about the two forms of restorative rest our spirits require, often neglected due to inadequate self-questioning in our current culture. Heather reflects on a pivotal moment during a keynote speech that transformed her perspective on supporting intuition and creativity.
The episode concludes with a treasure trove of non-threatening questions you can ask yourself to initiate a conversation with your spirit. Dr. Heather Penny's remarkable journey and insights inspire us to embrace our uniqueness and lead a life filled with purpose, passion, and growth.
What We Talk About:
- Heather's midlife crisis and reorientling journey
- The lack of research on uplifting women and its impact on her work.
- Helping individuals access their clarity, confidence, and courage.
- Unhooking from the fear-based paradigm and embracing spirit, creativity, and intuition.
- Balancing dreams with daily responsibilities.
- The limitations of five-year vision planning.
- Transformative experiences in Heather's life.
- Challenging limiting beliefs and speaking to the spirit within.
- Practical accessible ways to reconnect with intuition.
- What is restorative rest and the importance of it for our spirits.
- Pivotal moments in Heather's personal perspective shift.
- Non-threatening questions to connect with your spirit.
Rediscovering Your Inner Spark: Dr. Heather Penny's journey from a third-grade teacher to a leadership coach highlights the importance of reconnecting with your innate passion and purpose, especially during midlife crises. Heather's own transformation reflects the idea that it's never too late to rediscover what truly matters to you.
Spiralling Up and Unlocking Your Potential: Heather believes that everyone possesses their own clarity, confidence, and courage within. Her life's work is dedicated to helping individuals tap into these qualities and embark on a journey of self-improvement. She emphasizes that spiraling up is not just about preventing a downward spiral; it's about continuously growing and evolving.
Letting Go of Fear and Rational Thinking: Dr. Penny discusses the need to unhook from the fear-based paradigm and rational mind that often hinders creativity and intuition. This shift can lead to a more fulfilling and authentic life where you're in touch with your inner spirit.
Tapping into the Power of Spirit: Heather and her host explore the concept of spirit, something we all intuitively feel but struggle to articulate. Heather's work focuses on helping individuals connect with this inner essence, which can have a profound transformative effect.
Embracing Intuition: In a world that doesn't always acknowledge the value of intuition, Dr. Penny shares three essential steps to reorient yourself toward your own intuition. Her allegory about a girl and her bracelets offers a unique and perspective-changing insight into this process.
Restorative Rest for the Spirit: Heather highlights the importance of recognizing the rest our spirits need and how we often neglect this aspect in our lives. The right questions and self-reflection can help us regain the balance between rest and action, which is crucial for creative individuals.
The Art of Questioning: A list of non-threatening questions for self-reflection provides a practical tool for initiating conversations with your inner spirit. These questions can help you better understand yourself and your desires.
A Culture Focused on Longevity: Dr. Heather Penny's commitment to creating a culture that values longevity, creativity, and passion reinforces the idea that a well-lived life is attainable for everyone.
The Transformative Power of Speaking to the Spirit: Heather's coaching work, which speaks to the spirit within individuals, has a profound impact on personal growth and transformation. This highlights the untapped potential within all of us.
Nurturing Creativity in "The Rests": Embracing pauses and reflection in the creative process can lead to new breakthroughs. Just as music finds beauty in the rests, so can our creative journeys benefit from moments of rejuvenation and insight.
Unlocking the Unseen Potential: Heather's insights provide invaluable guidance for aspiring writers and creative individuals navigating their own unique paths to success. Her story is a testament to the power of persistence and self-discovery.
Dr. Heather Penny's journey and the wisdom she shares in this episode can inspire anyone looking to rediscover their passions, connect with their inner spirit, and lead a life filled with purpose and growth.
About Dr. Heather Penny: Dr. Heather Penny is not just a leadership coach; she's a trusted advisor, celebrated teacher, engaging speaker, and accomplished author. With a Ph.D. in Human Services and a strong global consulting background, Heather possesses the expertise to guide individuals towards their best lives. Her mission revolves around helping people recognize and harness their unique strengths. Through a wealth of experience, she draws out fresh ideas and actionable goals, igniting forward momentum in her clients.
Heather's extensive work in Educational Leadership is a testament to her commitment to personal and professional growth. Her coaching process is a catalyst for clarity, confidence, and courage, enabling individuals to engage more purposefully in their lives and valued relationships. Heather firmly believes that the world is enriched by the unique gifts that each person has to offer.
What sets Heather apart is her dedication to fostering creativity, passion, and growth. She aims to create a culture focused on longevity, emphasizing a life well lived. Heather finds her joy in Northern California, where she resides with her husband and two children. Join us for an inspiring conversation with this remarkable thought leader and coach.
Hi there. I am so happy that you are making the time to tune into this podcast today. Now there's so much content out there in the world that you could be choosing to consume. And choosing something that is intended to speak to and call out the deepest truest part of yourself is kind of brave. And I feel like it's one of the most important acts of bravery. That you could make. as you probably know, I believe with every fiber in my being that coming into relationship with this small, but mighty voice inside of ourselves is the thing. That will stop humanity from glitching. I'm really glad you're here because we really, really, really need you and what you have to offer. And if you think I'm talking to somebody else, I'm not, I'm talking to you. So I'm really, really happy that you're here. Welcome. And I hope you enjoy this amazing conversation today. It's with Dr. Heather penny. I love talking to people who are smart, right? There's something really wonderful about talking to somebody who's smart. And I know I'm smart, but I'm smart in a kind of different kind of way. I'm intuitively intelligent, smart. And Dr. Heather penny is that, but she's also academic smart. And she has one of those incredible minds. That's able to hold facts and statistics and patterns and big picture. And what I love about her and what I think sets her apart from other people who might be doing work similar to her leadership, coaching and personal coaching. Is that , she comes at all her work with this beautiful marriage of that academic knowledge. And it's really rooted in spiritual intelligence. And we'll talk a little bit more about what spiritual intelligence means.
Heather in her academic career found herself studying this phenomenon of women and how they were spiraling downwards. We are. Culturally conditioned to kind of put ourselves last and what the implications are. Of that. On society as a whole. We have amazing conversation about why we do that. why we try to mute out or shove down the soft, quiet voice when it's trying to speak to us .
But rather than continuing to study that downward spiral, Heather had this sort of light bulb moment that she realized w she really wanted to do was orient her entire life and put her energy. Into helping us spiral up instead of studying why we were spiraling down, which I think is a really wise. Perspective, heather's work now is about helping people partner with their own creativity to be able to live the life they were meant for. If you've ever found yourself, doubting yourself worth or wondering. If the world actually needs what you have inside or would care about what you have inside. This episode is an absolute must. Listen.
She's one of those people that has this rare ability to kind of get in past our defenses. And resonate with the part of ourselves that really needs to hear it and come alive. And that is. Powerful. And it's a gift and I feel so grateful that Heather gave that to us today. Before we get any deeper into this episode with Heather. I just wanted to say for those of you that tuned in to the last episode, with Martha and tole. And heard a weird track. That was just me talking and sounded a little bit glitchy, please, please forgive me. In true Friday, the 13th fashion, we had uploaded the wrong file to the podcast platform. And, uh, I think it was up for about an hour or so before we realized, and we fixed it right away. But if you started that and got frustrated and abandoned it. Go back because that episode with Martha is wonderful. She's an author and book critic for NPR. She has a huge extensive resume. She's really, really an accomplished woman. And she has an extensive wealth of experience. Writing and working in social justice she's always known. She was, a novel writer, but for 20 years she faced rejection after rejection, after rejection. But she stuck with it and she tells us how she did that. And the gifts she learned from all the rejection. And how now on the other side of that, what it feels like to be celebrating the first anniversary of her. Novel, which was shortlisted for a Gotham award. . Her second job was on the way and she's already working on her third. It could feel like a desert of pain when you're dealing with rejection after rejection for that long. And you start to question your dreams. Am I crazy? Why am I doing this world? Doesn't seem to really want this, . How she dealt with those voices. And, and now what it's like on the other side, looking back, it is a wonderful listen go back. And, and listen to that one it's not one to be missed.
What I love about our guests today, Heather penny is how passionate she is about normalizing this conversation about spirit. You know, how's your spirit doing? That's not a question we ask each other, but if we did ask each other, we would know what we meant. Like we all, we might have a different word for it. God or universal intelligence or soul or gut or. Inner child, whatever we call it. We all know kind of what we're pointing to when we would ask that question, but it's not talked about, we don't ask each other that, and we're not even really taught how to ask that of ourselves. And part of Heather's work is about normalizing this conversation about that soft, quiet wisdom inside of you. It feels like and wants and is doing right now.
. You know, we here do the thing you love and everything else will fall into place. Well, what happens when the thing you love doesn't really seem like it will make logical sense on paper from a career perspective, or maybe it's weird or new or different, and you doubt whether or not the world would want it. We talk about that. And Heather has so much to say about that, that I think is going to really reach in and possibly flip the whole script of how you look at your own creative offering.
And while Heather and I come from different angles, her more from an academic and coaching leadership angle. Our life's work and dedication is to help as many people as we can find that part of ourselves.
on that note, I want to remind you that I'm holding the monthly workshop, activating your intuition and creativity, . This workshop is designed to help you in a really practical, tangible, connected way, access, the soft, quiet voice inside of you that has all of the answers for all of the things that you're wondering about the directions that you might need. It is activating your inner GPS system, waking it up and doing it in a really beautiful, colorful, nurturing soulful environment. I really would love to see you there. And people who've been coming to them have been loving them and giving me really beautiful feedback , which you can read if you go read the reviews on the website. But the most important sign for me that this is something that's so needed is that they're signing up to do them again. So if you haven't signed up to do that workshop, it happens once a month in the lead up to the full moon. Everything you need to know is on Kate shepherd, creative.com. That's S H E P H E R D. So you can head over there and find out when the next one is and sign up for it.
And if you are a creative genius patron. These workshops, along with everything else. Bonus episodes meditations. Uh, worksheets journal prompts, all kinds of really beautiful goodies. These workshops are included with all of those things at the colorful community level. Find out more about that on patrion.com/the creative genius podcast.
Kate Shepherd: ____Heather, it's
lovely to meet you. Thank you for joining me.
Heather Penny: you Kate.
Thanks for having me. This
Kate Shepherd: One of my favorite things about this job is that I get to meet the most incredible people all over the place doing really powerful work. I was preparing for For this interview, I was kind of blown away by some of the stuff that you're doing and the way that you approach things.
And so for the listener who doesn't know who you are yet, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about work and where
you're coming from and what's driving you to do the work that you're doing in the world?
Heather Penny: I started out as a teacher, little third graders, so I always like to say that because my mindset is really on how people learn and grow. And it's our little kids, you know, our little, our little teachers that I got to learn from As I moved forward in my career, I was in it for about 15, 20 years, give or take.
As you look at working at university level, getting my master's in leadership education and stepping into that space of training teachers, I just kept learning what it meant for human beings to learn and grow, and I loved that. What I began to do is this shift in my life, and it was midlife shift, you know what we call midlife crisis, and I try and call it midlife opportunities, , to stop and really ask myself.
What is it that I'm about? I started realizing I'm made for more. I'm just not sure what that is. So I started interviewing all these different spaces and places, and it's places that I should have liked. You know, I was really into nonprofits and education and kids and at-risk communities.
These are all my heartbeat of . Probably my desire to save the world or think I'm saving the world . And to to step in that space and realize it was not cutting it for me and starting to feel that what's wrong with me, a terrible question to be asking because when I start asking what's wrong with me, it's a shame-based question.
Of course, I'm saying this all looking back, but in the heat of that moment, I'm like, all I can figure out is what's wrong with me. So I keep interviewing. Walking away
like this job and I'm afraid they're
gonna offer it to me. ,which is not
the way you want to step in,
which is telling me
there's a significant shift happening in my life.
I just didn't know how to orient. I'd never heard of coaching. I went to a coaching class, the instructor was phenomenal. I went up to him and I said, Hey, can I hire you as my own coach? And we worked together for over a year, and it was during that time where he was like, what do you think about coaching?
And I had never even thought about that. And when
I started realizing. The path that he'd helped me get through, helping me access my own clarity, my own confidence, and my courage. I
began to realize that's what I
wanna offer other people. So I, I. Said yes, but of course my
biggest fear is will anyone hire me
Do I have anything good to say? During that time, I went back and got my PhD thinking, you know, education was always like, well, if you're not sure, go get more education. It was kind of my thinking. So I went back and I focused on, uh, human services and public service leadership and what I was focusing on my dissertation.
I realized I want to start looking at this, what they were calling a social phenomenon. Of women spiraling down, particularly in the ages of 18 to 25 and sociologists were saying we don't know what's happening. It's just a significant drop. Being a mother of a daughter who was I think turning 15 at the time, my alarm bells were on.
As an educator, I was seeing a significant gap. We were losing our females and they were younger and younger. I had too many questions and I realized I don't wanna study the spiraling down anymore. There's tons of literature out there on it, and we need it. Thank goodness we have it out there. Depression, anxiety, and everything else.
But I to start studying what would make a spiral up. So my dissertation focus began to be on, I'm gonna go interview women in the uh, age group of 30 to 50 years old. So it's kind of where I was at and I had a little bit more clarity on my 18 to 20 something year olds, which I struggled with depression and anxiety, and nobody could tell me why, and I didn't know why.
I just somehow white knuckled through and got through it. But I think we can do better. So when I started doing that research, that's where a ton of information came out of what we can do to spiral up, and that's when I knew this is what I want my life to be about. And so my coaching, that's the heartbeat of my coaching and it's really a lot of my own personal life experiences.
And then out of a love for my own daughter, what happened in, I've been in the field for at least 15 years, opened my own coaching company. It was very successful and I'm still very successful today, and I don't say that
with I say that with . Kind of wonderment, sometimes , but also a, a huge relief that I think I'm doing what I'm made to do.
You know, when you're successful with
something, it's because you're doing what you're made to do. So that's why I then wrote the book, the Life You're Made for, because I believe everybody has a life they're made for. And then what I began to realize is my research was not just gender specific. It was for all humanity.
It started out with women. it's now across the board, I work with both men and women, I've created an allegory around it. I've created this style of coaching where I come alongside people and said, you may not know this yet, but you have your own clarity within you, your own confidence within you, and your own courage within you.
I wanna help you access it. So that you can begin the spiraling up and one day you won't need me. , you will learn the resilient kind of attributes and practices and skill sets that you
need. That when, not if, when you start spiraling down, you know how to
stop it. But we're not gonna just plateau. We're gonna stop the spiraling down and then I'm gonna give you practices and coach you along with that to begin what it looks like to spiral up.
And this is what I think is really missing in this conversation. Our world is,
We have a tremendous amount of conversations around the negativity of that, which again, I wanna say with respect and value to all the researchers out there that have really taken the time to assess this, I wanna join the conversation and build on what they've offered us in our society and say, all right folks, let's
Start talking about everything we know about this, and we do have an issue. What can we
start doing to spiral up? And so that's, when I wrote my book, I wanted people to feel like they had a coach in their corner to really assess. Um, there's six chapters on clarity, six chapters on confidence, and six chapters on courage for people to feel like they can figure out how to access those spaces within 'em.
And it's meant to be like a journey you take with me. And I have an e-course with it. I have a coaching companion on,
apologize. That's a
huge long answer to your question.
That's kind of where I started and where I ended up and I had no idea it was gonna take me. I just knew that I was dealing with a, a passion for a
significant issue that we have in our
society right now.
Kate Shepherd: I feel like everything you just said is why I felt like it was such a yes to have you on the show and have this conversation. Like I feel like there's so much alignment between, I'm saying humanity's, glitching because
we've become disconnected from creativity and
I, when I say
the word creativity, I'm referring to. That ineffable intelligence that's animating the entire universe. You know, your, your gut feeling, your inner knowing, your inspiration, your desires, your that, all the things that make you,
you, the inner wisdom and also
the molecules that are vibrating together in the
desk that I'm sitting at holding, you know, telling them to stay a table.
Like I, I get the shivers every time I say that.
Because it's all
connected. It's all, you know, but we've, we've disconnected ourselves from our,
I mean, and if you look at that as our operating system, we've kind of gone over here and said, well, No, I have to be, I have to look like this. I have to sound like this.
My life needs to be this shape. I need to marry this kind of person. My relationship needs to fall into this kind of shape and category. and of course we have to have,
to operate. Otherwise, it, it is chaos. But we've, we've gone so far down that road of the rational mind running the show that we've literally forgotten how to reference this.
Heather Penny: Mm-hmm.
Kate Shepherd: Inner self, like
ocean of, and I'm, and I fall prey to it too. I often think
I'm made for more, but I'm not sure what that, that was very familiar to me. You know, how do you help people, who have that feeling? 'cause I think a lot of us have that feeling I made from more, but I don't know what it is. And then there's a whole other category of people who have the feeling but couldn't articulate it.
I made for more, they're just sort of depressed. So for the person, and I guess I wanna speak to both of them, but for the person who
I made for more, but I don't know what, how did they begin to find that?
Like how did you do that?
Heather Penny: Yeah. Okay. So
me keep track of those
cause I have so many thoughts.
I wanna talk to both and I'm afraid, I'll forget the second one, for me,
Keep in mind that I was probably in my forties,
so I have a little bit of life experience under me,
I would say I had two significant
kinda Disorienting moments in my life. One was in my twenties, which the research was showing that a lot of women were struggling with this disorientation of identity. Then the other one was in my midlife, in my forties. Part of it had to do with, um, I chose to get married and I chose to have two beautiful kids, and I chose to start weaving my life and career around.
Those commitments that I valued. So I didn't get to take a straight course on my career. I had plans, Kate, I had plans, but when we choose these other things and I wanted both, and I think that's the scary myth. I think it's both true and false that you can have your cake and eat it too.
part of me having what I wanted, Which was a family life and my career
necessitated me getting more creative about it. And one of the things I started realizing is, and I'll speak to the really, that identities shift
in my forties, going,
okay, I've lived long enough now to realize
what I'm not good at and what I am good at.
So he, let's start, this is me talking to myself, , he, let's start telling people.
Kate Shepherd: start,
Heather Penny: When you're interviewing, yeah, that's a good fit for me. No, that's not a good fit for me. And we talk so much about finding our voice in this world and I think I had that good girl syndrome of
What do you want me to do? Let me tap dance for you.
I could do a lot of things and that's how we survive and we thrive to a measure for a while. 'cause we need the experience. There's a shift that happens in our midlife where you're like, I'm done tap dancing. I don't wanna sit there and give the finger to the world , because I don't wanna be an angry person either.
But there's a little bit of anger that starts rising up that goes like, I've had it, man,
but I've seen so many women get stuck in that space where I go, okay, that's a little alarming. So use the anger for a small point and this, I'll say this to the listeners,
don't be afraid of it. Use it for a little bit to reorient and then say, I wanna still move in with love and light and compassion and truth and transparency and authenticity, That just means that I get to use my voice in a cleaner, clearer way. So as I started really making that commitment, and this is what I call my true belief, my false belief is I can't speak up. My true belief is I need to speak up and I need to be really clear of what I like and I don't like, and then I let, need to let the full weight of my truth and who I am fall and I need to let people deal with it.
That can be the last piece. That can be very hard. People are gonna be disappointed when I say no. I was told even recently, I don't think you're a
fit. I'm telling you, I was like, what? I could feel myself going to sales mode. What do you mean I'm not a fit?
Let me, lemme start tap dancing. I could feel myself going head.
You do not need to be a fit for everyone. So I'm already recognizing, and I think that's the piece where I wanna say in my early twenties, you're just kind of overwhelmed and ambushed by a lot of emotions that you're not sure why you're having them in your forties. I wanna say. We have a little bit more life experience.
And then as is my coaching, this is more my coaching, speaking is I begin to start defining what that is. So this kind of goes to your second population. I think I remember what you said, Kate, where the second population, if you don't know yet, there's flags of
you're overworking, overbuying, over drinking.
Oh, and I say all this with some, all my fingers pointing back, overeating over, over, over, over. Overworking all these. addictions we might turn to, or even good stuff like working. We tell ourselves, well, at least I'm not getting high every night. You know, I'm like, okay, my tendencies are overworking and overeating.
Know that these are your flags,
so clearly you're trying to avoid something. What the world is telling us now is you're feeling bad. You know what? There's something wrong with you. Here's a pill. And I wanna say this really carefully because man, I so love our science community, and I so value the gifts of antidepressants and the things that an anti-anxiety, med meds that they've given us.
So I'm not saying never. I'm saying there is an other option. And even if you're on meds, I'm like, take the meds man. I will sit there and I will be your biggest advocator for that. And ask better
Track 1: what might I. be good at
Heather Penny: instead of what's wrong with me, what's right with me, what is it that I want to do more of, and that I've learned about myself that I'm no longer willing to participate in, and what is it that gives me life and gives me
Kate Shepherd: For the person who's sitting here listening to us and thinking, okay, I could ask myself that question, and I have dipped my toe into asking myself that question before, and the things that I love and I'm good at are not a thing that will pay for my kid to go to college or. The mortgage this month, or even groceries these days.
Like I guess I, I feel,
Heather Penny: Yeah. It's not
Kate Shepherd: I, I mean, and I think you, it's not, and I, and I feel like you and
I share this very strong belief. I think
that's the cornerstone of both of our work in our, in our own way. That, that we, that That each person. Contains within them a unique essence that's them, that is a, that is very needed by the world.
that is put in them to make a difference in the world. Each
person, and some of some of them are like really obvious, like, oh look, I became a science researcher and I came up with a cure for like, you know, and they're passionate about research and science and it's obvious when they, or, or the kid that's just really great at music from the time that they're little, they're writing symphonies and they're, that it's What it, most of the time it's not so obvious and we, we go through this, um,
dark night of the soul, the spiraling
down, know, in our, in our twenties where we are trying to shove down what that essence is because we can't see how it fits in the outer world because the outer world, let's face it, the current outer world that we've co-created isn't designed by
Creativity or, or in inner intelligence. It's designed by the rational mind and it's not designed to, to listen to intuition and to follow your
heart so there's a certain amount of like
unhooking from that paradigm to then learn to trust that
Heather Penny: It is. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm sorry I'm beating you to the question, but I think, I think I know what you're asking.
we have to hold this tension of we have responsibilities and we can't stop dreaming, but we can't live out of the whole dreams and we can't live a hundred percent of the responsibilities.
And I would say that
we just captured the tension of adulthood.
it's not either or, it's living in the responsibility and it's living in, I still get to dream
I was always a real career person and I remember was teaching at full faculty at a university.
Okay. For me, that was a prestigious place in my career path to get to, for me to. Choose to resign and stay home with my, I think, uh, five-year-old and seven-year-old at the time, I just saw that they needed me and I also felt like I was getting less and less interested in work.
It wasn't like I was like, oh, huge sacrifice. I'm gonna leave work. Mm. Everything was starting to come together.
I, my mind wasn't on work anymore. It was on my kids. They looked like they were having a ball, and then I realized, This is my only chance to be with them, and they only have one mother. You know, again, this is not a conversation on if you should stay home or work or anything like that.
It was just what felt right for me in that moment. And I think one of the questions I ask people as they're just trying to take that one baby step, I wanna say,
what's What's best option today? Not five years from now, not the, the, the ideal option that's gonna set you up for your career.
So as I pulled back, I started doing that and I was really probably completely embedded in them, probably five, six years.
I teach a little bit here on the side, but I didn't take anything full-time with that. Then when I began to realize this, we needed more income and we were, we're living in Northern California and prices everything were going up for everything The kids needed more and.
So I just said, what's my best option now to return to full-time faculty was not the best fit for me or my family.
It also wouldn't pay the amount of money that I thought it would pay. So I'm asking practical questions of what's the amount of revenue I need to bring in and what's gonna best serve my quality of life? My kids were at the age where they needed to learn piano. I I played piano,
a lot of other kids in the neighborhood wanting to start to learn piano, and I'm like, all right, I'll start teaching piano lessons.
That ended up just hugely growing, but I was really protective of, I only do it Mondays and Wednesdays after school. My kids are joining me. I probably had, I don't know, 30, 40 students at the time. We'd pull my piano out in the backyard. We'd have these huge recitals.
That was not my career path plan,
you know what I'm saying?
But it was my best option. And there were days where I'm like,
I can't believe I'm teaching piano to this little third grader over here when my colleagues over here are doing these thesis, thesis and dissertations, and they, they look so brilliant and accomplish. And I'm like over here going, okay, everybody here's middle C.
You know? I also realized I own that and said, it's not forever it, it's
my choice that I'm doing
now, and it's, it fits all those boxes it brought in. Twice the amount of money of my
faculty position, if you could believe it, because teaching just doesn't paid a whole lot. and it was less time and I was able to do full control over it, and I learned a ton about entrepreneurial skills.
At the time. I didn't know that I was gonna be owning my own coaching company one day, but that's what it was preparing me for and
I got to have a blast with my kids and their friends.
So I thought, well, I'll just do a couple PL lessons. That was my best option then. It ended up being like a five,
six year journey where I had a huge piano,
business and loved it.
And then as soon as my kids phased out, I'm like, okay, everybody, I'm done. I mean, and I'm so sorry. Neighborhoods,
if you're watching or listening,
I just said, and I'm done teaching piano. Like, eh, that's it. And then that's when I went back and I thought, well, what's my best option now? I want more education.
I wanna get my PhD, I wanna study what I wanna study on. I wanna hire a coach. I wanna start looking at working again. I wanna revisit my career. And this is where the challenge is. Sometimes when you take that circuitous route, when you go return to your career, it's not what you want anymore. You've changed too much.
I changed too much. I was like the faculty academia world. Might as well be corporate America for me. It was not an inspiring place to be of growth and development. It was a lot of politics. It was a lot of intensity and it didn't pay a whole lot, and there's a pressure to research and all these different pressures that I'm like, yeah, I don't think that's me.
I think some people really buy into it and love it
and it invigorates them. For me, it was making me begin to spiral down. Then I started looking at like nonprofits and stuff that made my heart beat and I go, I don't think I can ever return to this office nine to five
anymore. Like, What I did spoiled me for life over here.
So then I began to realize, oh, I think I made to do my own company and I think I can do it outta my own home. And I think I can make this work and I think I can build the revenue I needed. And during that time, being able to say, and I get to trust that it will come. So my mindset, this is where we can get sucked into.
I can't go get a doctorate. I don't, I don't have the money for it. I don't have the time for any of that. Those are the false beliefs for holding me back, but I'm like, no, I, I get to start exploring what's next for me and this is my next best option. That's it. My next best option in front of me. Then the day after that, there'll be another one, or the year after that, there'll be
another one. I think our mistake is we try and look too far out.
I had no idea what I was gonna
research. I had no idea I was gonna be a coach. I had no idea that I was gonna work with private coaching and personal coaching and work all over the world and work with corporate America. I had no clue. There's no way I could have written a year vision
plan, which is why I kind of have a love hate for those vision plans.
'cause I go,
if you're living off more of intuition and you're trying to say what's the best option for me today? Now, what's the best option for me tomorrow? If you're living at more of that space and you're trying to recreate and reinvent yourself, a five-year plan is outdated within a week. ,
it's it, especially for those of us who are creatives
because we are learning and growing so much, and so I would say, I think there's an exploratory period where you get to enjoy, I call it the buffet line.
You just go and you just start putting stuff on your plate and then you realize, I do like cream spinach. I don't like sweet potatoes. I do like, you know, roast beef. You start realizing what you like and what you don't like. Then you're able to take that and then I would say then you're ready for a five-year plan.
But giving yourself that permission to just explore for a little bit. And that's what my doctorate did for me. It allowed me to explore and return to my academia roots without returning to the agenda that academia had for me. And that was important for me to redeem, that I didn't just throw everything out.
in my research I had studied that when we move into the right side of the brain, That's when we get more clarity.
So I started doing more painting and drawing in my twenties mainly 'cause a therapist told me, here's what you can do to start finding the words that you don't have to express what's inside of you. So I began to paint and paint, paint and this is the painting that I hold. I hang in every office that I have throughout the last, gosh, 30 years now.
And it's showing me that I of of a. A, um, very loving, caring, being that is protecting me and watching me and leading me and guiding me because I'm a person of faith. I believe in a higher power, which I call God. So I'm partnering with this creative force out there that I believe loves me and has a creativity that is embedded in me.
So therefore, I get to take my place, rightfully in this world that says I have the right to co-create. And. When we live with that true belief of I get the right to co-create, and the only reason they say co-create is because
I believe there's a force that's creating
with us that we're not on our own.
Kate Shepherd: Not
Heather Penny: So we get to join that force, whatever you call it. If it's love or light or universe or source, you know, that's irrelevant to me. The point is, is that you're not alone. There's something that gets to pull something out of you or your inner wisdom or your true self. These are all phrases that I love , because I just feel like
Once I began to trust that I had something to offer to this world, and I got to have it pulled out in me, it began to give me the permission I needed to
begin the exploration.
Kate Shepherd: I'm thinking about the person who who doesn't even believe that that's how it works.
Who doesn't believe that the universe loves you? Who doesn't believe that the universe has your back or that you're
plugged that it's inside you? Like they're they. They have this feeling of, I'm built for more. They have these intuitions. They wanna paint, they wanna write, they whatever it is that they wanna do,
but I. They just don't believe that that 'cause, and I, this is brings me to something I really wanted to talk to you about, which is, I think a lot of the stuff that you do with your coaching work around changing beliefs, it is so hard to change
those deeply embedded beliefs.
Like if you came into this world, I mean, and I'm, I'm speaking about me right
now. I came into this world into a very traumatic childhood.
Heather Penny: Mm-hmm.
Kate Shepherd: I look
around the life that I've built for myself now, and I kind of can't, she kind of
shouldn't be here. I should probably be, you know, I don't know by the grace of God I ended
up with the, you know,
um, but so there is
a part of me that actually doesn't, 'cause I, I think about like, well, why isn't I know what I wanna do and why isn't it happening?
Or why isn't it? And I know I have this block and it's around this belief.
So what do you do if that's your, like, that's
pretty deep. That's
like a deep
root. How, how do you get at that one?
Heather Penny: yeah. Great question. all of us come to a reckoning in our life. That's the only way I can describe it.
At some point, we've begin to realize instinctively life is no longer working for us, and I've worked enough with humans.
To say confidently every single human has come to that crossroad.
It's what we do with that crossroad, and I try and normalize it as much as possible that when they step in that space of just so much disorientation and life's not working for me, and I keep trying to do the stuff that I used to do before and it's not working anymore, then I, I like to really show people that I believe that we're a whole person.
We are of course, the body that we're very aware of in our society, particularly North America, and it particularly is women. We
are all reminded that we are living in a
body as women. Okay, We got that one.
Kate Shepherd: We
Heather Penny: We get it.
Mine is also the other one
I think we get heart is also another one I think that we're doing a lot better on as we talk about eq.
I believe there's a fourth component of who we, who we are as humans. And I call it the spirit and it's the spirit of who we are. And typically people go, huh? But then when I just start describing it in a negative point of view, 'cause I worked with a lot of . At risk children, abuse children, everything else.
Um, I say, have you ever seen a child with a broken spirit? And most
people go, oh, yeah.
That's what makes it drive it home. And I say, yeah, there's something else that transcends the mind, the body and the heart. I don't know what to call it, but for the sake of the conversation, I call it spirit or soul. I think as we mature and get older in life, we begin to realize there's a force out there. And as I begin to get more comfortable with just , Gently laying on the table. I have never
had one person say, that is ridiculous.
I'm very careful that there is no religious or theological construct or any kind of proselytizing I'm doing.
There's nothing I'm trying to win them over for. It's, it's a gentle truth acknowledgement that says, Hey, have you thought about this? And now I'm very comfortable talking about it. I don't just put it out there. I just let it be in that really sacred space of when everything feels like it's not working.
I say, have you thought more about this force out there? And even I've, I've even talked about it in using Star Wars. The, the force for
good and the force for evil. And I'm like, we see it. We know it. This is what's affecting our spirit. And when I do the way I access people's spirit, this is a great
I did a keynote a couple months ago
and it was all of these nonprofits.
There's about 60 nonprofits in the room and they were all working for child abuse. Nonprofit agencies and at risk and foster care and adoption. So a pretty cool select group of people that are just like on the front lines are unsung heroes.
And I know the burnout rate is high. I just said, Hey everybody, we're gonna take a couple minutes. I'm gonna ask everybody what you're
inviting in and then we're gonna talk about what you're rejecting. So I just had them write down in the room 'cause I wanted them to, to see each other and know. Then I had them just yell it out.
And I'm telling you, I still get chills every time I talk about it. They're like freedom. Hope we we wanna invite in. Love, comfort, kindness. This wasn't a religious space, you know what I mean?
What are they speaking to? They're speaking to a spirit and they're trying to grab onto something beyond themselves.
It is transcendent to the human person. How do we describe it? Mind, body. Heart. We don't really describe it. You talk of the spirit. There's a whole nother conversation that we are instinctively having let it be had and respect the fact that it's gonna look
unique for everybody else. Nothing needs to be attached to it.
Then I said, okay, what are we standing against? What are we rejecting? And they're like, despair,
scarcity, hate, defensiveness. Again, I just get the chills talking about it because I just said, this is, this is who we are in this room. This is who you get to know each other to be. You get to stand in that space and just saying it out loud.
You get to hear the spirit in this room, and now your best
self or your best spirit
is connecting to the spirit next to you
and these people you didn't even know I said Now, trade business cards. When you're having that really crappy day, or you've had super hard conversations with five abuse cases that you're thinking, I don't get paid enough for this, and this might derail me and I don't know how to let this go.
You go call two or three of your buddies here because they're in the same game and they're gonna know how to stand with you, and they're gonna know also what to help you reject.
So now what are we speaking to? We're speaking to the spirit of humanity.
Which is that conversational space that I don't think we're good at yet in America.
I think we can get better at it.
I wanna be that voice that just normalizes it and just lets people experience it for themselves. Oh yeah. All of a sudden my Hope Meter was on zero , which who assesses their Hope meter? None of us do. We're just trying to get white knuckle it through life. But I'm teaching them to start making this assessment of, well, how does that make you feel?
Did it make you feel more energized when you walked away from that conversation? Did you feel more intervi energized, or did you feel
more drained? That's really a spiritual question, and I'm not saying this is a spiritual question.
I'm letting them start to access their inner wisdom, their inner intuition, and then I help 'em get concrete.
I have recognized when I sit down with someone and I don't care how amazing this conversation is or this person is, when it goes past
that hour and a half mark, I can feel myself getting drained. At first I was confused. All it is is my introvert side.
My introvert is, is on overload, and
now I'm like, I've taken it all. I can take, there's nothing more. I can take it. I'm overly saturated, overly stimulated. Maybe a little bit of my sensitivity side too. So that's once I know that about myself, yeah, I set my meetings up and then I also have to be
I can only do one a couple times a week. Because my coaching and the work that I do is a lot connected. These are things that we start learning about our
spirit. So when I say, Hey, how's your, how's, how's that energize you? How did that make you feel? These are questions that as I'm working with people and I'm coaching them, I'm getting them to kind of raise that antenna or that that space or their spirit that is probably atrophied because we don't have a conversation around it.
I would venture to say, and really hypothesize that. How much of our depression anxiety is around the fact that we don't know how to ask this question, and then
we go, take this. I'm feeling really bad. Well, our wonderful doctors and our scientists are doing their best to access it, but I don't think it's a mind and
body issue as much as it
a spirit issue.
Kate Shepherd: I feel like that is
when I have the image of humanity glitching and I'm talking about depression and overconsumption
and just what we're creating in the world right now, I. Uh, and I say that it's because we've become disconnected from creativity. I think that's synonymous for, you know, spirit of what you're, it's that soft, quiet voice that, and it's about
what you were saying with your painting.
It can, that can speak
to you, but it doesn't speak to you through words. It can't, it doesn't
actually have language. It doesn't. So it will speak to, with
Ds and gut feelings and yeses
and nos and like, I don't want it be faculty anymore. I wanna teach piano. Like
that feels good. and, and I was very lucky.
And I think
that this is, um, it's a little bit of a strange thing to say when there's a lot of childhood trauma or chaos or violence or whatever in your, in your childhood there,
a a lot of us tend to develop this deep connection with this spirit part of ourselves because it's our refuge, right? And so I've always had this
connected, like it speaks, and I'm like, I heard you. I'm going like, pretty much like a lot. My intuition
It's really good. I can, you know, um, but I realized that we don't, we don't all
have that and we do need that and my perspective is so connected to my intuition, it's hard for me to imagine somebody who doesn't have a. Deep connection to that soft, quiet voice. When you're working with people and you're trying to kind of point them to that part of themselves, what are your kind of top three pointers
for them to get to know that aspect of themselves so that they could realize, oh my God, this thing has been in me all along.
Oh, there it is.
Heather Penny: Yeah. Oh gosh. I love that you asked that
what I have found that is the most non-threatening connection to assess the state of your spirit is, um, a story.
And so it's what I use this allegory I use in my chapter book as I introduce the clarity and the confidence and the courage. But it's a very simple story of this little girl. Who loves playing outside and she's alive and she's free, and someone gives her this beautiful bracelet and she loves this bracelet.
It makes her feel valuable and cherished, and she's got this beautiful giver in her life. As she gets older, she gets more and more givers and more and more bracelets, and she stops doing what she loves, which is running outdoors to go on her tire swing, and then she stops spending time. Under the stars and, and living in nature.
Her spirit begins to disappear. She begins to disappear, and she starts doing everything she needs to do to balance these bracelets that are going all the way up to her shoulders and making sure that that's her focus and her energy is being spent on those bracelets. Now, the challenge of this, and this is the adulting bracelets from either good or bad.
When we choose responsibilities like jobs and families and commitments and, and, and, uh, kids and friendships, when we are choosing some of these responsibilities, that's a bracelet. What we have to do is start recognizing, am I managing the right amount of bracelets and are these the right bracelets I wanna on, and do I need help taking some of those off?
And when's the last time I visited my tire swing? And by the way, what is my tire swing? And it's when she spent time under the stars that she heard a voice on the win. That said, take off your bracelets. It's not who you really are. So what this then is this allegory is trying to get people to recognize there's bracelets here,
We have the choice to put them on or off. There's a tire swing that everybody has and it's waiting for them and make them come alive. And I'm telling you, I've heard so many different types of tire swings and it's awesome. And then there's the time on the stars that we need to really hear that voice in the wind or inner our inner wisdom or God or that, you know, universe, whatever it is that is
Pulling at us that says, I think I made for more. And tire swing and under the stars represents two forms of restorative rest, which is what our spirit needs. The tire swing is an active rest,
painting, hiking, gardening, doing something you love.
Kate Shepherd: Yeah.
Heather Penny: star time is a form of contemplative rest, which is journaling. . Staring at the stars, literally staring at the stars, whatever it is that you need to do to just decompress the spirit, the human spirit needs these two things, and I didn't realize I had to describe that or explain it until I spoke at an event and.
there was probably like 300 people in the room. And literally I was talking about rest. And this woman raised her hand and interrupted me. , I've never been interrupted at a keynote. And I'm like, well, now I'm curious. What So I'm like, yes, and she goes, what do you mean by rest?
And I talk about it in my book, and that was years ago. But the fact she asked me that, it really hit me that in North America, we
really. Have not defined
rest. Well, and when I say rest, they're like, people think, oh yeah, I get my eight hours of sleep. It's like they drink their gallon of water a day.
There's this like checklist. I'm go, oh no. It's much the human, the human person is so multifaceted and so complex. It's not just about getting sleep. It's about really looking at what's the state of your spirit. Even as I ask you that
question, you can feel that that's such a foreign question that we ask,
Kate Shepherd: Mm-hmm.
Heather Penny: and it can be also very scary and vulnerable.
So I wanna respect it. So that's why I use the allegory. And now I have clients still jump on the line. They're like, Hey, he, I need help with my tire swing today. I think I've got too many bracelets on. What what they're doing is having a spirit related conversation and is their body and mind and heart involved?
Of course it is. But now we have that fourth component that's joining the conversation and letting them assess things in a very non-threatening way, but more importantly in the way that's right for them. And I'll say, I don't know. Let's talk about what is your tire swing? I don't know. When's the last time you, you felt at peace?
When's the last time you felt like you weren't striving? When's the last? These are questions I ask. When's the last time you had the most energy? When's the last time you felt like, uh, you were exhaling? And then they begin to describe what it was, and if they really can't remember, they've just been so disassociated
from their sense of self for so long.
I'll take 'em back. Their childhood, the tire swing. You know, the little girl in the tire swing. So, We get there eventually, but it takes work and as their guide, all I'm doing is helping them go inward to access their inner clarity, confidence, and courage, and giving them that permission and that respect that they have it within them, but no one's
asking 'em the questions at helping
them access it.
Kate Shepherd: I love that. I wanna ask you, I ask this question in every interview, It's, I call it the billboard question. 'cause there, you know, there are more people that you're not gonna get to work with than you are gonna get to work with in
this lifetime. So if you had a magical billboard
that you could reach the hearts of all of these people out there who know that they are made for more,
not sure what, not sure how, not sure if they're even good enough or if it's really true
but they would read these words from you, and it would land in their heart. They would really hear you. Their spirit would hear you and begin to wake up. What would
you put on that billboard?
Heather Penny: I think I would call them
into the action and into their sense of self and something like , believe in who you are and what you have to offer is deeply wanted by this world.
Kate Shepherd: thank you. I love that. I wanna tell you, I have this beautiful
little, I'll heart shaped bowl
carved out of wood,
Heather Penny: I
have one of those too.
Kate Shepherd: winners.
I put my angel cards in it and,
uh, I pull a card, you know, before I, I start every interview, I say a little prayer that goes a little bit
Heather Penny: Mm.
Kate Shepherd: Say the thing that needs to be said so that what needs to be heard by my guest
and by the listener, and even by me can be heard and said, for the highest good of, of as many
possible people, and then I pull a little word out of the, out of the bowl. And the word that I pulled for our conversation was
expectancy, which I just thought was really, I, at
first I was like, like the first thing I thought was pregnant, right?
Like you think of expecting. Um, but she's opening, it's an angel and she's opening a gift,
a box, like a gift wrapped box.
And through our conversation that we had
today, kind of what
the way that made sense for me was just around like,
it's okay to expect that the universe.
Loves you and has your back and that you do have this
thing inside of you.
But I want, I want to just check
in with you to see like, what does that,
Heather Penny: I just love that. Yes. I am so in sync with you,
and I would say
the space within you is wanted by this world, and I think that expectancy is this sense of abundance, abundant thinking, and we've heard this a lot, but it's this awareness that. Whatever creativity is coming out of me, whether it's a new company venture or a painting or a book or anything, and I have a lot of creative projects I do.
I too have to battle with
that sense of is this really wanted and is this,
is this just wasting my time?
I think we're all haunted by that and I think I wanna normalize that. And I think this syncs up with your expectancy. Not only do you get to expect to create, but I wanna even take it one higher and say, you get to expect that it is not only needed and wanted, but it is desperately.
There is a, there is a space for you that only you can fill in this world. It might hit one person, it might have a ripple effect, it might hit thousands. We never know. We never know. That's the faith that I try and reach for in those days when I go, is anybody listening to me? Am I wasting my voice my time?
I had zero book sales this week. Is this even a book worth writing? You know, these are all questions I'm haunted with. And to be able to say, it gets to be whatever it is, and I am not
focusing on the numbers, but I get to just keep living in that true belief that who I am.
How I'm made is is desperately needed.
So as I continue to grow who I am and become more and more self-aware of my potential, I get to trust this not just serving me and me being more fulfilled and happy. I get to trust that it, it's going to be a ripple effect that's going to serve the world because I truly
believe we're all
Kate Shepherd: I, I a hundred percent feel that. I a hundred percent feel that. And I love that we're having this conversation out loud. 'cause I think for so long, um,
oh, sorry. Just one moment.
I have, I have another interview and she's early. Uh, sorry. I feel like For so long we've known that, like, I think you've alluded to that a few times here.
Like there's this knowing that we have, but we're not having the
conversation out loud. So we kind of just like sit with this feeling of like, I
feel like I have this other aspect of me that's not
being heard and, and so I, and I feel like
I've met like a sister or like a person on my squad or like, I just wanted to like
say that to you. What an
honor it is to connect with you and, and share this.
This This calling, I feel like it's a calling that we've both had to, to have this conversation out loud and to serve
in each other. And I wanna stay connected to you. I really, I
feel, I feel
a real kinship with you and I really appreciate
this time with you
Heather Penny: I do too. Kate, thank you so much. When we get
off this, uh,
podcast, I'll give you all my private stuff so that
you can text
me personally and everything else.
I'd love to
stay in touch,
Kate Shepherd: I would. Totally would love to stay in touch with you. Before we do that, before we go, uh, how, how can people find out, like I'm already like, oh my God,
I would love to work with this woman. She seemed ama So if you're listening
to this and you wanna
work with Heather, please
um, listen to what she's about to say.
'cause she's about to tell you exactly where to go
Heather Penny: Yeah,
Kate Shepherd: find all that information.
Heather Penny: I have, um, a large clientele now that I work with, so I only take a small amount of people that I work with personally, and I think that was the reason I started writing this book. I wanted to help put it out there. So I would say the best,
way to really get ahold what I'm doing is go
Kate Shepherd: we're glitched. Are you still there?
Heather Penny: Are you here? Okay. The best way to really find out who I am, start with my website, heather penney.com. You'll get tons of free stuff. I give away blogs every week. Sign up for my weekly blog. I'll be telling you everything I'm doing. I've got a new book coming out where I'm gonna be speaking next, um, coaching groups.
I'm gonna be starting with other people that I'm coming across that are
like-minded, that I'm gonna do personal invitations to.
All these different things, um, are, are, are probably the, the weekly blog or the weekly newsletter is gonna help you stay connected with me in that. And then if you're ready to jump in today, but you're not able to get ahold of me and I'm not taking on clients right now yet, I'll be taking on some more a little bit.
You can start immediately with my book. And then what I did is I also created a coaching, a companion. I'll hold it up for those who might be seen, but. Book and it's, it's nice and lengthy, so it's gonna feel like a nice if you give yourself a good couple, about three months to read this, do a chapter a week.
It's set up to be that way. Then it's got a little, um, coaching companion, like a workbook that goes with it. That would be a good place to start. And I also am selling an e-course that goes with it. So you get me on a video like five minutes with every week. Do it with a friend, do it with someone else that is really wanting to have this conversation.
I'm setting it up for you guys to have the personal empowerment to step into that space and then come find me where I'm speaking, 'cause I'm doing more and more keynotes and workshops and conferences. And I would love to meet you guys. If, if you listen to this podcast, come up and say, Hey, I, I heard you on Kate Shepherd's podcast.
Just introduce yourself to me. I would love to give you a hug and just
say, thanks for coming.
Kate Shepherd: give you a hug too,
Thank you so
Heather Penny: Oh, you're welcome, Kate. Thanks for giving me the opportunity
of just talking with your audience and just sharing my heart.
Kate Shepherd: Oh, it's a joy for all of us.
Heather Penny: You're welcome.
Take care everyone.
Kate Shepherd: love
Heather Penny: I love.
You can find links to Heather and her work, including her book, the life you're made for on Kate shepherd, creative.com.
Under episodes, you'll find Heather's show notes page.
Connecting with this soft, quiet voice inside. Can guide us to the life that we were meant for. And I also want to remind you of my invitation to join us in activating your intuition and creativity workshop. It's an online virtual workshop that I hold every month. we're working to connect with that soft, quiet voice inside of ourselves. Learning how to hear what it says, how to understand what it's trying to express through us and learning. How to trust it and let it out. Everything that you need to know about it is on Kate Shepherd creative.com under work with me.
I love how Heather closed out this show. What we have inside of us is not only wanted, but desperately needed by the world. We don't get to know. Who or how many people are workable effect. But there absolutely is a ripple effect.
What might be available to us if we were to trust that. We really are all connected. And that what is inside of us? Is desperately needed by everything and everybody else in the rest of the world. trust in that ripple effect. And create from there.
A lot of us have. Deeply embedded, limiting beliefs. That are formed as a result of childhood or other trauma. and these can really impact our ability to create the life that we feel our Intuit might be available to us. It can feel a lot like being stuck in amaze sometimes. Through my work with activating intuition and creativity workshops. This podcast and the writing i'm doing i'm trying to help people come back into contact with that soft quiet voice that helps us navigate to the life of our dreams the life we're meant to live Heather and i talk about unhooking from the paradigm of fear and the rational mind that runs the show in our current society And instead how to tap into spirit creativity and intuition to live the lives that we were meant for This is a beautiful conversation as i was listening to it the image i had was of being on a great big adventure Without a map feeling your way around and stumbling upon a little hut where there was water and blankets for resting and maybe even an old wise soul to give you clues for the next leg of your journey It Really is how this episode feels to me So without further ado here's my conversation with dr heather penny