Dr Cheryl Arutt Clinical & Forensic Psychologist : The Brain Science of Creativity
Episode Summary
Have you ever wondered any of these: What the science is behind creativity? What causes creativity in the brain? What part of the brain is used in creativity? Or maybe even how to activate creativity in the brain?
In this episode Kate speaks with Dr. Cheryl Arutt a clinical and forensic psychologist based in Los Angeles, California working with actors, writers, directors and showrunners supporting their psychological well-being. A specialist in trauma recovery, creativity and post-traumatic growth, Dr. Cheryl is currently Access Hollywood’s go-to psychologist for trauma issues, a frequent psychological expert on many networks including CNN, HLN and DiscoveryID, and has been interviewed by the BBC and 20/20 Australia. For more information about Dr. Cheryl please visit askdrcheryl.com, and for info about her online courses for creative artists please visit www.thecreativeresilience.com
Episode Notes
Have you ever wondered any of these: What the science is behind creativity? What causes creativity in the brain? What part of the brain is used in creativity? Or maybe even how to activate creativity in the brain?
In this episode Kate speaks with Dr. Cheryl Arutt a clinical and forensic psychologist based in Los Angeles, California working with actors, writers, directors and showrunners supporting their psychological well-being. A specialist in trauma recovery, creativity and post-traumatic growth, Dr. Cheryl is currently Access Hollywood’s go-to psychologist for trauma issues, a frequent psychological expert on many networks including CNN, HLN and DiscoveryID, and has been interviewed by the BBC and 20/20 Australia. For more information about Dr. Cheryl please visit askdrcheryl.com, and for info about her online courses for creative artists please visit www.thecreativeresilience.com
Dr. Cheryl explains how creativity works and what it even is from a Brain Science Perspective. We talk about the link between education and creativity. I ask her if we are doing enough to foster creativity & creating thinking in the school system? And she gives us some actionable things we can do at home for ourselves and our children to rev our own creative engines. One of my favourite moments though, comes towards the end when I ask her about the possibility of the opposite of inheriting generational trauma existing. We know we can inherit trauma but can we inherit magical wonderful things too? We shared a really tender moment - one where I felt like she was talking to ALL of us. It’s beautiful, uplifting and inspiring. I think you’ll be really moved by it.
What Dr. Cheryl Arutt & I talk about
-What creativity IS from a brain science perspective.
-What is really going on inside our psychology when people say “I’m not creative”
-Why processing trauma including intergenerational trauma, and converting it to post traumatic growth is so important (and is absolutely possible)
-The link between education and creativity. Are we fostering creativity and creating thinking enough in the school system? And if we are seeing that our children are not getting as much focus on creativity in school what can we do at home?
-What is the one question you can ask yourself (or your kids) to kick start your creativity (what is another way to do that/look at that/solve that)
-How the “we only use 10% of our brains” thing is a myth
-How to use creativity to safely access our traumas
-What is EMDR (eye movement and desensitization and reprocessing therapy how it was discovered and how creative people can use it to heal trauma and access even more of their innate creativity
-Post traumatic growth - learning to integrate and recognize all the ways you grew as a person as a result of living through your trauma
-What she thinks creativity is trying to do - from a brain science perspective
About Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Dr. Cheryl Arutt is an accomplished clinical and forensic psychologist based in Beverly Hills, CA whose amalgamation of rigorous training and experience allows her to engage with people from a place of deep insight and empathy. Through compassion, skill and sometimes even humor, she helps her patients uncover what is in the way of living a full-access life, empowering them to move forward.
Following over 20 years as a working actor, Dr. Cheryl’s interest in human behavior shifted to psychology after volunteering on a crisis line. With scholarships from both SAG and AFTRA to study at University of California, Los Angeles, Dr. Cheryl graduated summa cum laude and was elected to Phi Beta Kappa. She earned her Doctor of Psychology degree from California School of Professional Psychology in Los Angeles, where she received the Outstanding Doctoral Project Award for her Clinical Dissertation: Healing Together: A program for couples coping with the aftermath of rape.
Her postdoctoral fellowship at WILA culminated in a certificate of psychoanalytic psychotherapy, and she received further advanced training in Interpersonal Neurobiology with Dr. Daniel Siegel, with whom she gave a TEDx talk. A lifelong student of power dynamics and an ally for social justice, Dr. Cheryl taught courses to PhD and PsyD students at Allliant International University/CSPP, including: Intercultural Processes and Human Diversity, Sex Roles and Gender, Ethics and Clinical Interviewing.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt - Clinical Psychologist
As a trauma specialist, Dr. Cheryl helps her patients understand how adaptations to the source of distress often outlive their usefulness and provides guidance and inspiration to navigate life from a place of wholeness. In continual pursuit of deepening her knowledge of trauma recovery and post-traumatic growth, Dr. Cheryl is devoted to continuing education in effective and evidence-based therapies, including EMDR therapy. A certified Rape and Domestic Violence counselor for decades, Dr. Cheryl also serves on the Board of the national victim’s organization, PAVE, dedicated to shattering the silence of sexual violence.
Dr. Cheryl understands and supports the unique needs and challenges of creative artists and performers. In collaboration with Dr. Cheryl, actors, writers, showrunners, musicians and other creative professionals learn to thrive and clear obstacles to their success and happiness, both personally and professionally. She is a firm believer that the best way to protect the art is to protect the artist.
In addition to working with people in private practice, Dr. Cheryl enjoys speaking to professional organizations, institutions of higher learning, at events and on television about creative resilience, post-traumatic growth, recovery from trauma and why people do what they do.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt: website | facebook | instagram | twitter
Kate Shepherd: art | website | instagram | twitter
Morning Moon Nature Jewelry | website | instagram
Creative Genius Podcast | website | instagram
Resources discussed in this episode:
-Dan Siegel, MD
-Dan Siegel’s “Window of Tolerance”
-EMDR Institute
-Access Hollywood video about EMDR
-Bessel van der Kolk, MD book: The Body Keeps the Score
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
When something so overwhelming, is coming in when the information is too disturbing, it gets stored in a faulty way in the brain. It's undigested, it's almost like you ate something you couldn't digest it sitting in like a ball in your gut. So what's in that ball is raw sensory information. You have pictures, body sensations that carry the the intense emotional charge from when they first came in, because it's undigested, always a negative belief about yourself. And that's in there. Also, it can be a really irrational negative belief about yourself. But that's in netball, too. And so then what do we do we have this like minefield of these trauma balls inside. Most people, I don't want to go anywhere near those, you know, people avoid them like crazy. They don't want to think about it, they don't want to talk about it. And this presents a particular dilemma for the artist. Because this is also a source of a lot of, of creativity.
Kate Shepherd
Hello, there, welcome to creative genius, the podcast. I am really excited to bring you this episode today. It's been a long time coming. Some of you might remember a while back, I asked, What would you ask a clinical and forensic psychologist who specialized in creativity. And you sent in your questions to me and I asked them to our guest today. Our guest is Dr. Cheryl Eret. She is a clinical and forensic psychologist who co hosts and is a regular member of the behavior Bureau on HLN panel show Dr. Drew on call. She often appears as a psychological expert on ABC, FOX News, HL en, and two TVs in session. As a creative person herself for many years Cheryl was a commercial print and television actress. Cheryl's work as a psychologist often centers around creativity in the importance of healthy creative expression. She tells us how she left acting to pursue a psychology and thought she left the world of creativity behind only to find that it followed her to her practice. Cheryl is a compassionate and generous and thoughtful person. And I really appreciated the opportunity to be able to ask her questions about creativity. From a brain science perspective, you have been leaving me such lovely reviews, and I wanted to just take a moment to say thank you for doing that. It really means so so much to me. So please keep doing that. And I wanted to read you one here today. The username on this one is GT seven 620. This person writes, I feel like I found my sisterhood listening to these women. It's amazing to me that I can hear my own story in every conversation. I really had no idea how many people understand and share what I feel. Thank you for the beautiful magic. Thank you GT seven 620. It means everything to me to be able to provide this space for us to have these conversations to listen to them over and over again. And to do the inner work that we need to do to set ourselves free. It's an honor for me to do this work. So thank you for being here, all of you. And if you haven't left a review yet, please do you can just head over right now to Apple podcasts as you're listening to this episode. And just leave a quick review. Just a thought or a feeling of how you felt listening to the show or a moment an aha moment you had. And I would love for you to think about listening to this podcast by donation. And what I mean by that is if this is something that's meaningful for you, if you get inspiration or encouragement or it simply raises your spirits to listen to these conversations, please sign up to make a small five or $10 contribution each month to help make sure that I can continue to have the resources I need to keep making the show for you find out more on patreon.com/creative Genius podcast. If you've ever wondered what the science is behind creativity, what causes creativity in the brain, what part of the brain is dealing with creativity and how we might activate more creativity in the brain. Dr. Cheryl and I talk about all these things. She explains how creativity works, and what it even is from a brain science perspective. We talk about the link between education and creativity. And at one point I asked her if we're doing enough to foster creativity and creative thinking in our school systems. And she gives us some actionable things that we can do at home for ourselves and also for our children to rev our own creative engines. One of my favorite moments, though, comes towards the end when I asked her about the possibility of the opposite of inheriting generational trauma. So we know that we can inherit generational trauma we know that for My brain tides perspective now, but I wanted to know, can we also inherit the opposite of trauma? Can we inherit the magical wonderful things to, we share a really tender moment about that one where I felt like she was talking to all of us. It's beautiful, and it's uplifting and inspiring, and I think it'd be really moved by it. I can't wait for you to hear that. I wanted to remind you to sign up for my newsletter on Kate Shepherd creative.com. I offer free workshops, demos, workbooks, I do random gratitude offerings of 50% off original works of art. And I do a monthly art giveaway. I'm about to do a draw for the next one. So make sure you're signed up before that. And a reminder about the creative genius Facebook page, you can join our private community there we discuss our aha moments for the podcast, share our creative pursuits, struggles, joys, and offer support to one another as we walk toward allowing the energy and intelligence of creativity to take over the driver's seat of our lives. There are so many wonderful things for you to hear in this conversation with Dr. Cheryl Eric today, and I'm so excited for you to get in. So without further ado, here's my conversation with clinical and forensic psychologist, Dr. Cheryl Eret. Welcome Cheryl, I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you for joining us time,
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
I'm excited to be here to thank you,
Kate Shepherd
I wanted to tell you a little bit about the intention of the show, before we get into our chat, there's so many things I want to talk to you about, I hope we can actually fit them all in. I'm an artist and and I believe that creativity is in all of us, and that it's there from the very beginning. And that in fact, it never tried, it never stops trying to get our attention. And that it offers us this wealth of important things that maybe we're not sort of taught about, you know, as children in school, we think about creativity as sort of art. But I think some of the things that creativity can give us are actually really critical for living healthy, fulfilled lives. And I started this podcast because as an artist, I would run into people continually over and over again at various different art events and galleries and shows, where they would just say, Oh, I don't I don't have it in me, I wish I did. But I just am not a not a creative person, quote unquote. And I had this aha moment a while back where I saw that everything in the in the wrong in the world can be traced back to these limiting beliefs we have about what creativity is and where it lives. And, and, and humanity is basically glitching because we have forgotten how to access this really critical part of ourselves. So I'm on a mission to help as many people as I can discover and rediscover this aspect of themselves through my own little corner of the world, because I know that it is right here. And it has so many things to offer us. So yeah, that's kind of the intention of the show. And I was really excited to have you on because you're you know, you're you're a clinical and forensic psychologist, and you've specialized in treating trauma for over 20 years. And I was really curious, when I read that you one of the areas of focus in your work is creative artists issues. And so maybe I want to start off by just asking you what, when you first started doing this work, what caught your attention about creativity?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Oh, that's such a huge question. As there's so much to talk about with that. I spent 20 years in a creative field, I actually grew up as a creative artist. And when I became a psychologist, I thought I was leaving. I thought I was completely changing my life. It was like jumping off a cliff with a new identity. I didn't tell anybody what I used to do. And I had gone to school to be a psychologist. And all of a sudden, my practice started filling up with actors and writers and directors and cinematographers and all of these other creative performers. And they were just like, Oh, my God, you get my life, you understand me? And they, they didn't really ask me why, like or think about how, but I had grown up in their industry, and retired when I was 25. And went back to school with scholarships from SAG and AFTRA to go and learn to do something that I thought was something else. And then all the creative stuff circled back and found me in a different way. And what I really get to do now is I get to really help people fully get access to themselves and be grounded and then go and do their thing while they hold on to themselves in a healthy way. And so the creative part was kind of always with me. But I think it it ended up surprising me as creativity does.
Kate Shepherd
It's funny how that happens, isn't it? Yes, for sure. I feel like our it has to be named I feel like our collective definition of creativity is so narrow and it's so limiting. You know, we think it's art and it's in the visual arts especially, you know, like a lot of the stereotypes around creativity and, and I really want personally a part of My mission feels like I want to help to redefine creativity so that more people can find it and find it in themselves. But I really was excited to talk to you from sort of a brain science perspective, like, what is your definition through that lens of, of what creativity is,
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
creativity is being able to act out in a way that's constructive. We think so much about acting out as as a bad thing. But people who are creative, they create something that didn't previously exist. And they do that using their creativity. And we can use that in all kinds of constructive ways. We can use it in ways that aren't as constructive. And from a brain science perspective, creativity is, it's the opposite of rigidity, of being locked down, you have access to yourself. And it operates very often in a very unconscious way. When I see people, when we're talking about the things that we generally think about as conventionally creative, because you, you also made a really good point, that actually, I think I wanted to talk to first, I had a conversation just last week with a friend of mine, who was saying, Oh, I'm not creative. I'm not creative, like you and these other friends of ours. And I said, Wait a minute, you are somebody who has just completely re envisioned your department where you work, and reorganize everybody's job description that actually works better for their lives and make things more beautiful and functional. And what I love about her, she's minimalist, she can, you know, carry this little teeny bag on vacation, and she can see, you know, what's essential and what isn't. And her creative problem solving is something that she never thought about as being creativity. But it's so creative, and it's something I've always really valued about her. So that's just one example of why ways that people are creative. Why
Kate Shepherd
don't we do that? This is something I wanted to get to. So I'll just jump to it right now. What is it that that we are doing as a culture as a group? Or is it to so readily believe that story? Oh, I'm not creative? Because it's so it is everywhere? And it's so obviously not true. To me, to me, yeah, obviously, not true. But but but at spent so many people are so quick to to believe that and embrace that idea and almost hide behind it, like, what are we scared of? Or why do we believe that?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
I think that a lot of what makes us pull back from that when we get older than kindergarten is perfectionism and our inner critic, I think that we can put so much pressure on ourselves, and feeling like, Oh, I'm not good at this, or I'm not good enough for as good as this other person is. And if you have your inner critic on your shoulder, the whole time, you're creating something, it's very difficult to hear yourself think. And it's very difficult to really let what comes out, come out. And so a lot of what I think makes people grounded and have a good experience with their creativity is being able to identify that inner critic and get it to shut up or kind of get your inner bouncer booted out. And leave you alone. So you can do your thing.
Kate Shepherd
Do you have strategies that you work with people to do that? Because I think I mean, that's, it's, it's so bang, it's so bang on like, that is exactly what you need to do. And that there was I had another guest on who talks about her committee and how she was she she would say, I rebuke you. You have to go somewhere like in the studio, like she'll actually sometimes out loud, say, the inner committee. Yeah, the inner committee, like you can Yeah, you can't be here. But so when you're working with somebody who's really just it, because it can be paralyzing right to have to be dealing with fat? Yeah, I've always called it my board of directors, my inner board of directors, they can really be paralyzing. And so we do have strategies that you give people to work with to help to shut those guys up.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Well, the people that you're talking to seem to have a whole a whole posse of these of these people at once like a big chorus of all all on your case at once. I you know, I think that one of the things that can be really helpful is to really recognize that as an other, that this is something that is not the truth about you are how the world works. This is coming from a very specific, very biased point of view. And it basically has one job and that one job is to make you feel terrible about yourself. And it will lie to you it will use any kind of trick in order to tell you you're not enough or you shouldn't or whatever you did is wrong and it should be something else. If you can recognize that and not identify with it. I love with it with the person you were speaking to said about you I remember You do and sending it away, I find it can be actually really helpful to not even get into a, you know, a deathmatch with it because you're kind of fighting on its turf in that way, but to be able to turn the volume down, to be able to also really cultivate, what do I want, instead of this? What do I want to think about myself instead? What do I want to feel instead? And wouldn't What am I calling in? Because it's a lot easier to say, Oh, I don't want to do that, or that was terrible. Or growing up? I felt like this. And, you know, maybe it's the opposite. Maybe that's what I should be doing. But the opposite is just as much determined by the bad thing as having to do the same thing. You're nodding your no. Well, that's
Kate Shepherd
right. Yeah, totally. Totally. It's a house of mirrors once you get in there. And I realized, I remember the day that I realized, Oh, my God, that thing that I've been thinking was the good voice in there is actually just a shapeshifted version of the other inner critic, like it'll do whatever it can to get my attention and to keep drawing me in. And I feel like sometimes it's grabbing at my ankles. I don't understand that. Why does it do that? What is the purpose of that?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
That's wisdom right there. The day you figured that out, I just want to reflect back to you. Yes, you know, it, it really does like to establish itself as if it's the truth, or you need me, you need me you would be so mediocre. If I wasn't running the show and telling you all the things you're doing wrong, I mean, that I'm being you know, this inner critic, I call it the saboteur. And the saboteur is there to really undermine you while posing as the protector, the one who keeps you excellent. I've never seen anybody really, really thrive because they beat themselves up harder and faster and more preemptively than anybody else. You know, it's just, you know, there's so much unnecessary suffering, that happens. And so I think, first just getting the the idea that it's lying to you, and that you don't have to listen to it. And you can say, yeah, yeah, I hear you. But But we tried your way. And that didn't work for me.
Kate Shepherd
Well, yeah. And saying, like I'm on to, and this is not about creativity, but I used to have a fairly significant fear of flying. And I caught myself one day, thinking that it was the fear that was keeping the plane in the air. And that the minute, the day that I decided to not be scared would be the day that the plane would fall out of the sky. Because it was actually the fear that was, and if you think of it from like, a species evolving, and like coming up with like, a way to survive, what a brilliant thing my ego did to keep that part of itself alive. Like that's such a compelling argument. Right? Totally.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
You were flying the plane from your passenger seat? Yeah. Right. You were protecting it by by worrying. And that's, that's the other thing. Because that's the recipe for anxiety is, you know, trying to control the things that are not in our control. And also paying thinking we can prepay our anxiety. Because, you know, have you ever heard anybody say, I am so glad I freaked out about that for months and months, months, because then when it happened, you know, I'd already prepaid my anxiety. No, it doesn't. It doesn't work. But we find ourselves doing it anyway. Until we figure out, wait a second. I have a choice. I can choose something else in the day on the on the plane, you realize that you had a choice? Yeah. And you dared and I stopped flying the plane.
Kate Shepherd
And I did it was terrifying. I said, What would happen if I went on this plane, and just didn't let that thought, be in the driver's seat? What would happen? I was actually flying to California from Vancouver, pre pre pandemic. Wow. And it was exhilarating. I was terrified. But I, it felt amazing. It felt really great. I've talked to a lot of artists and not really any site near my first scientists that I've talked to. And so I was I had all these questions I want to ask you, when we're engaging in creative activities, so drawing or writing or painting or acting or dancing, like any of those things, traditionally, but even your friend who's organizing her office and you know, pulling in those parts of herself, what's happening in our brains chemically, is there something different than sort of the regular mode that we're in, in our normal day to day lives? And is there a different creative mode and what's happening in there?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
That's a really interesting question, because on the one hand, there is a special mode that some people call a flow state that we go into during creativity, where it feels like you're just completely immersed in what you're doing. And everything else falls away. And afterward, it's, you know, you feel incredibly rejuvenated and you feel like you may have even lost time you don't know where the time went and you were just completely absorbed. Because you weren't toggling. You weren't tracking Doing something else you weren't also on your phone or also, answering emails or doing whatever those things are doing things that put us in a flow state is incredibly healthy. When we think about is there a particular mode, on the one hand, we use creativity all the time. And it is sort of embedded, not even in that ideal flow state, but in solving a problem, and stepping back reassessing and shifting and trying something different. And in doing the opposite of what the addiction, people talk about their definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Creativity is kind of the opposite of that to going this isn't working, let's try something else. You know, the thing is that the two biggest, really different modes that our brains tend to be in our when we feel safe. And when we don't feel safe. Our brains function completely differently when we are in fight or flight. or Now we also know freeze, it's very difficult to be creative from from that place, what we what we've learned is that neurotransmitters that that help us survive, also built in the shortcuts to our brains. So when we are in a mentor of mine, Dan Siegel created this idea of the window of tolerance. And the window of tolerance is like that sweet spot where we get full access to ourselves, we can notice our bodies, we can think and feel and have kind of an all access experience with ourselves. That's optimal for lots of things, when we are hyper aroused, so we're above that we're not feeling safe, we, we may have racing heartbeat, our thinking changes into black and white thinking where you're either with me or you're against me, we're in survival mode. And we're figuring out if we need to run or flee. And if we're below that window, as hypo arousal, that's when people shut down, or dissociate, or it's like the pinball machine hitting tilt. And, you know, we don't have any access to ourselves there. But but one of the things that I think is really interesting about the fight or flight state is that all of the most creative parts appear in our prefrontal cortex and the forehead part above our eyes. That's the part where we do things like response flexibility, where we get to like, Oh, I'm going to generate a bunch of options here, and then pick the one that I think is the best one, recognizing nuances of things, figuring out what you what you want, now versus what you want, most. All of these kinds of things take place in that prefrontal cortex of the brain. And guess what happens when we are in danger? It completely shuts down. As a matter of fact, I believe that we lose up to 50 IQ points when we are really angry, or really, oh, I've
Kate Shepherd
lived up.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
We've all said things that were like, Whoa, I'm a smart person. And I said, That was I think you're right. But if you think about it, it has tremendous survival value. If you know, if if a predator jumped out in front of you, and you went, Hmm, what are all my options here, and then I'll pick the best one, you wouldn't make it out of that situation, right? So we, we you start reacting instead of responding. And, you know, we find ourselves doing things before we even realize it. So it's really good to have that. But it's also really good for our brains to be able to tell when we're safe. So we can have like our whole brain and our access to our whole self. And from that place. I do think that when we're creating things, we also have a lot of unconscious input. Where a lot of times you may I don't know if you've noticed this in your painting, but sometimes you think you're saying one thing with your work, and then somebody else sees something else in it, that it's actually really true of you or that you see there now that you didn't intend to do that in the first place. But that's what kind of came out. You know what I mean? I know exactly. So we all have our brain, I think in this but learning that that we can do our best. When we know how to tell them we're safe.
Kate Shepherd
It sounds like as you're talking I'm kind of trying to make meaning about my story, because my language around it is a lot more like sort of artisty and well, it's your gut and you're this and you're like you know, but you're saying the same thing. And I I think what we've done is we've leaned we've gone into that like I feel like we're there's these two pillars, roughly speaking of our being and one is like the logical mind, the rational mind that And then there's the sort of more creative aspect of ourselves. And I, I believe that they're meant to sort of be unified and work together and we lean on one, you know, in the emergency where the tiger is attacking you, that's not the time to be creatively thinking of all your options, as you just said, and but so what we, what we've forgotten how to learn how to how to access which one and at which time, and we've leaned really heavily on the sort of more rational mind. And that's why we're sort of watching, I feel like we're swimming in a circle. I always use the image like so.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Oh, tell me the image,
Kate Shepherd
oh, I always have this image of a sea turtle, like with one flipper. And it's like, you know, Oh, great. But I'm swimming in a big circle. Because I'm only using my rational mind. I feel like that's what humanity's doing right? Now. We've forgotten how to access. So I mean, it comes back again to how do we cultivate No, for the person who thinks I don't have a creative bone in my body, I wouldn't even know where to begin, how can they start to plug into a creative practice that helps them strengthen that aspect of themselves so that they can be doing more of those activities.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
First, I think they need to see the logical value in doing that. Because it is deeply valuable, to be able to access the colors and the and the, to get the music and not just the lyrics of things. And, you know, it's it's very interesting when we think about this split between logic, and creativity, or emotionality. And I think it's an artificial split. I think there was a fad for awhile in psychology where it was, like logical or emotional or logical or creative. And it doesn't really work that way. And when is the things that we learned when, when we were first able to really study the brain when it's working? And that's only when we got the imaging equipment in the last few decades. Before that, you know, there were these crazy things, people would say, like, oh, we, we don't use 90% of our brains? Well, no, we actually use our whole brains. That's a myth. But people couldn't actually see what those parts did. So they just kind of made up that we had this major organ that was 90%, useless, which is kind of like my mom telling me there were more vitamins in the crust of the bread. The brown one is really just makes no sense. So you know, logic is helpful here, like, logically, we wouldn't, we wouldn't have that. But at the same time, what people think is emotion free logic, is mediated by emotion, those neural pathways and channels are directed by whether we feel safe or not, whether we have, you know, what we want, and what we feel. And if we're so invested identity wise, in being logical, and dismissing everything else, kind of clinging only to that, we have to split off awareness of a whole bunch of other really important parts of ourselves, almost like there are rooms in this palace that you never get to go in, and never get to see. So learning that even the logical thinking is mediated by emotion, and that they work together ever, like you're saying, then you get the whole thing, then you're not looking at a partial view and wondering, what's wrong with this picture?
Kate Shepherd
It leads me a little bit to trauma and, and resolving trauma. And and I, you know, I want to acknowledge that there's, you know, there's micro traumas, and then there's, you know, really big traumas and, and it's, it's relative, like, you know, what you experienced as a child may not be as like, bad on paper as some, but it's real, to the person who's experiencing it. And, and yeah, they all need to be there. I think I feel they all need to be addressed. Right. And so, I want to talk about creativity and trauma resolution. But I wondered if you would help us to understand the mechanics of trauma, like when somebody goes through a trauma, what is actually happening in the brain? And what are the repercussions of it afterwards?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
That is a really, really interesting thing to talk about. When somebody goes through a trauma, it interrupts a natural process that our brains normally do, because when we normally take in information and digest what's happening and make meaning of what's happening to us, our brains decide where that goes, what's important, what isn't important. I think it's a really good metaphor when you think about digesting food, like we pull out the nutrients and we figure out oh, I don't need this stuff. And then we let that part of it go, and the memory gets consolidated. So like, when you think about a memory that is not upsetting. That happened a long time ago, it has that like, far away kind of feeling, right, right. Trauma interrupts that process. When something so overwhelming, is coming in when the information is too disturbing, it gets stored in a faulty way in the brain. It's undigested, it's almost like you ate something you couldn't digest it sitting in like a ball in in your gut. What's in that ball is raw sensory information, you have pictures, body sensations that carry the the intense emotional charge from when they first came in, because it's undigested, there's always a negative belief about yourself. And that's in there. Also, it can be a really irrational negative belief about the self, but that's in that ball, too. And so then what do we do we have this like minefield of these trauma balls inside. Most people. I don't want to go anywhere near those, you know, people avoid them like crazy, they don't want to think about it, they don't want to talk about it. And this presents a particular dilemma for the artist. Because this is also a source of a lot of, of creativity.
Kate Shepherd
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Dr. Cheryl Arutt
So it's a, there's a there's a kind of a dialectic or a push pull that goes on, because on the one hand, I think creative people want to have contact with their pain, because they use that in a way to, to create and to say something to the world. At the same time, I think a lot of artists are very afraid of healing their trauma, because they're afraid it will make them lose what makes them special as an artist. And so people who are not creative people, when they come in for trauma work, they're like, I want to be out of pain. I don't want to think about this anymore. You know, get me past this. Artists are like, I'm gonna use this, or, you know, look at the people who figured it out. And maybe their work wasn't as great later. And you know, what, if that's me, of course, they're not thinking about the people whose work is even better, or the people who wouldn't have made any work at all, if they've destroyed themselves. You know, they hadn't healed. So. So this memory storage. And this, I think the the metaphor of digestion, it's really helpful to understand why we have these little pockets of supercharged content, that when we touch them, we get this big flare of intensity, because it's an digested, it's unprocessed trauma. So from a
Kate Shepherd
creative, sort of thinking about, like people who are doing art therapy, is it a matter of going back? Like, what's the what is the process of going in and accessing look for somebody who's saying, Okay, I'm willing to suspend my belief that, you know, I need this, I need to hold on to it. And I'm ready to let it go. I'm ready to I can't. And in fact, oftentimes, I feel like what I see is people are actually surrendered, they can't hold it anymore, because it's becomes too much to hold. So when they get a pointer, for whatever reason, somebody's ready to start to look at some of these. I love the image of the trauma balls. Thank you, how one of the mechanics of using creativity, or creative process or your own creative practice for not only accessing those, but also accessing them in a way where the whole thing didn't just explode. And now you're in this big like, it's all awake and alive. And you've always live wires. How can somebody navigate themselves through that and use creativity to help to digest some of these things that are stored in the wrong way that you're that you're saying?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Well, there was a psychologist who made a creative discovery about this exact thing that you're talking about. She was walking down the street one day, and she was thinking about something that really bothered her a lot. And she noticed that her eyes were moving very ballistically quickly from one side to the other in a way that people don't normally do. I don't know why she did this. But she noticed that after a while, it didn't bother her as much as it did before. And because she was a psychologist and had access to she taught at a you know, in a university setting. She had access to all these students. She started researching this. And she brought all these people in and have them think about things that bother them and move their eyes in this way and it helped them also which was amazing. And then all these people in the field were like, That's stupid. Ange, what a bizarre form of treatment. And I mean, you can probably imagine this is not the way things were generally done. It's interesting Bessel Vander Kolk, who's one of the probably top trauma experts in the world, he said Harvard psychiatrist, and he wrote a book you may have heard of called the Body Keeps the Score. Yep. And he talks about when, when this, this was the beginning of EMDR, which is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing therapy. And he said, you know, there were there were these residents, who were, who were no medical residents who were working in the psychiatry rotation who were doing this weird eye movement thing and, and yet, you know, at first, he was like, stop this at once. And then he said, you know, the strange thing is that the people that they were working with, got better, like really quickly. And started researching this, this is now an evidence based treatment that is available around the world, the the, our bodies of literature and meta analysis about it. But what what she creatively kind of accidentally discovered, and using the eyes, which are the only part of the body actually that each eye is wired into both sides of the brain, where my right hand is wired into the left side and my left hand to the right, but the right visual field of both eyes goes left and left goes right. Apparently, our own bodies naturally do this rapid eye movement when we're sleeping, during memory consolidation, and we take the contents of the day, and for some reason, this is connected with like your body going, Oh, I'm going to digest this stuff right now and figure out what's important. And that's why people say sleep on it, when you have a big decision to make, right? So for some reason, the trauma stuff that was stuck, when you actually scaffold it by giving somebody to look at, to do this bilateral stimulation, which is stimulating off the midline of the body, your brain kind of went, Oh, yeah, I forgot to do that one. And on its own, it was start, you know, digesting the trauma memory. And you could actually watch the charge drop, until a person could think about something that might have been like on a scale of zero to 1010, in how much it bothers them, where they could think about it, and it wasn't charged. And not only that, but because their brain made all these new connections now that they're safe. And maybe they've grown. I'm a big believer in post traumatic growth, they can look back and instead of blaming themselves for something or feeling shame about what happened to them, they could recognize all the things like wow, look at how resourceful I was, or look at how brave I was, or there were these people who helped me or I didn't give up, I kept going and really come to have a very different, very powerful, positive feeling about themselves. Instead of whatever that negative belief about them, you know, that harkening back to the saboteur and the inner critic, you know, that they latch on to to paralyze creative people. So actually, creatives have more access, once they are able to free themselves. Yeah,
Kate Shepherd
I was gonna ask what the, I'm imagining, you know, as you're saying that about the eyes being wired in individually, never net that never would have occurred to me. But as when you're embodying your creative practice, whether it's painting or drawing or writing even, or you're experiencing things and so can you sort of, do you think you could prompt? Or is it a similar phenomenon that's happening when people are doing art therapy? Processing? And you're moving? Because you're looking around? And you're is it? Do you think it's related to that?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
I don't think it's the same thing. I think that, that art therapy can be very powerful in helping people draw things. And by by drawing and making things, they can express things that they can't say, or they were told not to say? Or maybe it happened at a pre verbal time when they didn't have the words to be able to talk about it? Or is it a channel to the unconscious material, they don't even know they have this to say. So it's it's very, it's very rich area.
Kate Shepherd
I'm glad you brought that up. Because I did, I would read over the articles that you've written and what you wrote, I am continually amazed at the work of the unconscious in the minds of creative artists. And I wanted to ask you to say a little bit more about that because I want you because of what you just said, I do think that it can be a portal for us, but I don't know much about it. So maybe you can tell us how that works.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Sure. It's fascinating to see what people make, whether it's a novel or painting or some other type of work. There, there are ways that that The artist is conduit almost for this unconscious material. And it's almost like you don't even know what you've done until you've created it. And it's really, sometimes it's very special for me when artists share their work with me. And we can kind of explore, not as an art critic at all, but as as if they had shared a dream or some other unconscious material to have them share their associations to the different aspects of it, if it's a visual piece, for example, or to look at the ways the writing a novel or a screenplay or something else, the conflicts that people are trying to work through, show up in their characters they make, how could they not, and they get this, this alternate universe to be able to work that stuff out. And there's wish fulfillment they get to have people say and do things they wish someone would say and do in their lives, that could be very healing. There's ways of expressing parts of themselves that they've hidden, but with the safety of character and a work that isn't literally, then there's so much freedom to be able to explore and play. And I think that cultures everywhere, probably from the beginning of time, used art and theater for this purpose, to be able to express these things and to be able to share them with each other and go, Oh, my God, it's not just me, and to not feel alone. Right? Yeah, yeah. And
Kate Shepherd
it's like you said, love that it's a safe place. It's like, well, I didn't say that. My, it came out of my art or over there, now we can talk about it. And but then as soon as that other person says, me, too, then then you can feel a little safer being vulnerable, saying, Well, you know, I kind of do think that or feel that or Yeah, wow.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
And then people feel less alone.
Kate Shepherd
So as an artist, I feel like creativity, it's, it's a presence in my life. It's almost, it's almost like a person, I can feel it has an energy, it has ideas, it has ups and downs. It comes and goes, it is almost tangible. And it feels like it's trying to do something. And I think I feel I sit with this a lot, because I want to know, like, what, what do you think that energy is trying to do?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Well, as I'm listening to you, I am wanting to ask you, what does it want you to know?
Kate Shepherd
Let Me Feel into that for a minute. I'll ask it. Hang on a second. I'll ask it. It's an invitation to enjoy myself.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Yes. You want to take it up on that? Yeah.
Kate Shepherd
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the whole. That's the whole point of all of this. Right. All of it is, that's what we're here to do.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Yeah, it's inviting you and and by association, all these people, you're inviting into participating in creativity with you to step more deeply into their joy into all of our joy. Oh,
Kate Shepherd
I love that so much. Oh, thank you, I so we're kind of nearing the end of our time together. But I did I put a little call out to some of our listeners of the other day, because I wanted to I told them, I was gonna be talking to you and said, you know, if you could ask this person, anything, what would you what would you want to know? So it would be okay, if I shared a few of their questions. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. So one of them is when and how is the major damage to our creativity done? And can this damage be resolved?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
I would if I had to pick one word, I would say shame. Shame is the tremendous obstacle and shame is so powerful even naming it or talking about it at all can evoke it and make people feel it. So it's it's a tricky one, when we are ruled by a sense of ourselves as being defective or inadequate or being painfully seen us that we don't want to go hey, look what I made. Look what I did. You know, it's risky to send your personal, private, creative work out into the world, it takes courage to do that, right. So so I would say to to your listener, the more we can heal our shame, recognize our worth, that that we deserve to be seen and known and loved. The more we can do that, we can use the creativity as a means of helping heal the shame as other people.
Kate Shepherd
Another of the questions are It's hard to be creative in a world that seems to offer very little support for it. What do I do?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Yes, it is hard to be creative. And yet, when we open up our definition of creativity, we see that it's everywhere. So I would really want to ask that person, what are you holding as being creative? Are you inhabiting all of the creative things that you are? And then also looking at the myths about art and creativity, that is only you have to suffer to be an artist, you have to be destructive. And if you get paid for it, then you're selling out. And, you know, you have to be a starving artist. I mean, like, all all of these ideas, that, you know, artists gets thrown at them. And no wonder people think, Oh, God, no, you don't want to do that. Do you, you want to live on the straight and narrow, and here's the ladder to success, climb it? Off you go. But it sounds like that person has something that they want to say. And I hope that they dare to to use their voice.
Kate Shepherd
And I love that. What do you think, is the link between education and creativity? And I think this came from somebody who has small children in school, and he's concerned that they're not focusing enough on fostering creativity and creative thinking in the education system. And and can we deal with that later? Or is that going to have long lasting impact? And what can they be doing at home to help foster that?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
Great question? I think that keeping a sense of play is important. We can educate the creativity right out of our kids, if we're not careful. And, you know, I was really lucky, there was a there was a program that I went to one day a week in elementary school, where they would they had this sort of alternate kind of creative thing, we do something that they called CPS, which was creative problem solving, where they'd say, Okay, here's a piece of sheet metal with these dimensions, like, what could it be used for? Or coming up with these? You know, how many words can you make this start with this, and then with that, and like, we got to do all this, like really fun stuff. And I think that's still benefiting me. Now. I think the games that we play with our kids, and they play with each other puzzles, not be so focused on passing and failing, but looking at qualitative stuff and keeping the idea of what's another way to solve that, or to achieve that and get out of that linear, kind of, there's one right way to do things can really be expanding for kids.
Kate Shepherd
I love that I've got little kids of my own. And I love that what's another way? I do we do a lot of art, as you can imagine my my kitchen table actually have, we've never eat at least at the counter in the kitchen. There's too many art supplies on our table on the dining room table that we often end up doing sort of the some of the same things because we get into even a creative group. And so I wrote that down. What's another way? Because you've said that a few times throughout this conversation of what's another way of looking at this or what's another way of and I love that as a way of kind of exercising that muscle or creative muscle. I love that. Okay, this one is for me, this was a question that I just had, I didn't know where to put it in. But I'm going to just ask it to you. Now, I'm wondering if, if you think that from a scientific perspective, we can I can put quotes on this. Remember things from our ancestors, and I'm thinking about like images and symbols and, you know, things get transferred in the DNA that indicate what our physical form, but is there a similar way of translating? Because there, I feel that there are things in me that I can't explain. From the end, I just I've wondered what, you know, scientifically, what the, what your thinking is on the
Unknown Speaker
this is profound? Because you're asking both this a scientific in it and a spiritual question. I think at the same time, scientifically, what we know is that there are intergenerational things that get passed down. We don't know whether it is entirely genetic. Whether I identifications with what, you know, we've seen even unconsciously, we kind of can swallow whole certain things without even realizing that we've taken something in. But on a genetic level, there's also there there are genes that can be switched on or off in terms of of the environment that we're in. And what I think one of the most powerful things that I've seen research wise there's been regarding intergenerational trauma, that there are certain things about if your ancestors did not feel safe and they had to escape something or they lived in persecution, or they were refugees, or there were, you know, the the kinds of hardships that get inflicted upon groups of people. And I say that very mindful of what's going on right now, as we speak. Those are things that those traumas can get passed down intergenerationally. And that's one of the reasons why, I think addressing it and reprocessing trauma, and finding ways to convert it into something that can lead to post traumatic growth and connection is so vitally important, not just for creativity, but also for health. Because people who come from generations of painful history are at greater risk of all kinds of illnesses and things unless they find their ways of, of, of healing themselves. And also being by being more heal, being able to deeply connect with other people. Our connection with each other is incredibly resilient. So, so there are cultural pieces and things there are people who know things or feel things or have symbols that resonate. And they don't know why. And then maybe they learn about their family history. And there's a there's a significance there. But I think given given my work, where I go to first is intergenerational trauma, and the effects the really important health resiliency, and interment interpersonal quality of life benefits that people have when they're able to work through the trauma they know. And by virtue of that also access some work through the trauma they may not know, but they're carrying anyway, because of who they are.
Kate Shepherd
Right. And on that there's two things coming up for me, one of them is if if trauma can be passed down can also, you know, other experiences of like intelligence and wisdom and knowing and intuition, and I'm assuming that if you can handle on trauma, you can also hand on muscle memory for for the good thing. So that was one thing. And then the other thing, the reason I asked you this is that at the time that we're recording this, the the Russia has just invaded Ukraine. And I am a Ukrainian Canadian, who was raised by, by so my grandmother, my great grandmother came to Canada, and had my grandmother, there's no but they, you know, they didn't talk a lot about it, because and I think this happens a lot to to immigrant families or refugee families where they get to the new place. And it's like, we're not going to talk about that. That was too hard. You just have to learn. So my mom wasn't allowed to learn Ukrainian and we didn't, you know, we got the sort of easter eggs and the borscht and the hell of chi and casseroles. But we didn't Yeah, we didn't really ever talk about sort of the history of it. And when I couldn't, I couldn't get out of bed actually, the whole weekend, that first weekend, when when this first started unfolding, and I couldn't explain it. I couldn't. I was having a really cellular experience. And I had never felt so connected. I had never even been curious about Ukraine. Really, you know, but suddenly, I was having this like, visceral connection, that I can't explain it. Did. I just all I can say is it felt cellular and I cried and cried and cried into my brain was raw, and my eyes hurt. And, and finally, I texted my mom and I was just like, you know, I'm, if I'm feeling this, I can't even imagine what you're feeling. And she said, Katie, because she calls me Katie. Yeah. You know, there's a time for crying. And but, you know, all Ukrainian woman would tell you, there's also you know, a time for her. And then you have then that you need to act. And so cry and do the crying and, and so I took that to heart. But you know, other friends had been saying go to your art because, you know, we talked about earlier, when you're processing difficult things are coming. So I did I went to my art and I Sorry, I couldn't believe I, I started to see how all my life all the little doodles that I've done are Ukrainian symbology. They're, like, all the ancient stuff that you find on the like, and it's I was looking through journals, and I was just like, oh, this has been in me. It was never taught to me. And here it all is. And it's so multifaceted. You know, I mean, I feel like I'm kind of like, holding that good part of what that what's going on energetically even for that culture and what's going on over there right now. And also like, reconnecting with this. And I just thought, just because I was curious about, you know, it's a very old culture and for 1000s of years, or at least 1000 years, these images and wisdom and art and like have been passed down, you know, and then it stopped for two generations, right? But that didn't mean that just because orally it wasn't being taught to me that it wasn't in me and so I wanted to just add, that's why I asked you that question,
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
I just got chills. Thank you so much for sharing this, I'm so sorry about what's going on. It's agonizing on a global level, and to have this be Ukraine and to be Ukrainian, Canadian, this is this is just this lives in you, this lives in you on a on a cellular level. And the reaction that you're having, by the way, is completely normal, completely normal, and understandable. And what a gift, the recognition about the symbols is, what a gift to, to, to have in in, in this very painful situation to be able to connect with your mom, and to have her give you permission to cry. Not that you need permission, but it can be nice to have her gift that and to see the extraordinary strength of the women and the culture you come from. And take pride in that.
Kate Shepherd
I always had a story that I was a real worrier. And even my mom would joke you know, you like we we do these big size, you know, like, you're doing housework. And you're saying and my mom would joke, she used to always jokingly call it Ukrainian yoga. And sort of joven Lee, we always had this story that Ukraine, you know that we were worriers. And that story about the airplane in the house. I think that is I'm Ukrainian, I could worry for the Olympics. You know, I could work for Ukraine in the end. But watching this happen has really changed my story about who I am and the people that I come from, and the truth about my heritage. And, and it has been absolutely heartbreaking to receive this gift of this inheritance. Because I always as an artist felt like I was trespassing on other you know, First Nations cultures, if I wanted to pull beautiful symbols or imagery from their work to put in mind, I felt like I was stealing something. And it never felt. I never felt like I had anything of my own that way like that I could. And so when I had this epiphany about, you know, this, it just felt like this huge gift was bestowed on me of all this. And so, yes, it's been extremely painful to have that gift happen at the same time as as this is happening. And and I hope that it's you know, I know Canada has the third largest Ukrainian population outside of Ukraine and Russia. And so I hope that you know, any other Canadians listening to this, and Americans to anybody, anywhere, because I actually don't feel like this is just limited to one country, like, wherever you're, wherever your ancestry came from, I also feel like you, you have this gift that's in you, I had no idea this was in me, I had no idea this was in me in it feels. Yeah, it feels like a abundance of, of, of gifts that I can't even that I've just can't even begin to tap into, I haven't even begun to tap into you, you have begun. I have begun you have if I have. That's true, I have to know.
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
And and I really appreciate you voicing this and sharing it with me and the people that are listening. This is what we need to be talking about together. Honoring and acknowledging these things and being able to find those things within us that make us feel connected, and powerful, and capable, and able to rise to whatever is asked of us. I see your strength. Thank you.
Kate Shepherd
This has been such a wonderful conversation for me. Thank you so much for making the time for all of us today. I have one final question. So I asked this at the end of every show. If you had a billboard, that every person in the world who longed to be more creative or to or who said that they wish they could be creative, but just believe that they couldn't for whatever reason? What would you what would you put on the Billboard?
Dr. Cheryl Arutt
I think my billboard would be very concise. Creativity is your birthright. Thank you. Thank you,
Kate Shepherd
thank you. So much richness in this conversation wasn't there. I really love that Cheryl pointed out a big important myth that I think we need to give some attention to around creativity, which is that as artists, many of us feel attached to our pain, we've made this sort of false connection between our pain and our ability to produce or our creative output. And, and it's a myth, you know, as she says that, in fact, when we do go back and are able to heal some of the traumas and painful things that are that maybe it remained undigested for us, we're actually able to create for ourselves a deeper, richer connection with ourselves with our creativity, and we're able to express possibly even bigger and better and greater things. And that it's actually really important to let go of that myth of needing our pain in order to be good artists. I thought that was really important. And I want to underline that. I also really love the simple exercise that we can incorporate in our everyday life, asking ourselves on a regular basis. What's another way to do that you go to the same place every day in your car take a different route, it's important to use different parts of our brain. And I think these two notions can exist really beautifully together. So what is another way to look at the pain that maybe we've been carrying around? What's another way to look at it? What's another way to approach it, maybe there is another way we can look at the way we've been carrying our ideas of an artist needs to be in pain in order to access the stuff and use it. And I can see that applying to everybody from writers, to painters, to sculptors, to actors, singers, musicians, songwriters, you know, anybody who's, who's got a story, that holding on to your pain is somehow fueling your creativity. What's another way to do what's another way to look at that? What's another way to do that? And be with that? Is it possible that we that we got that wrong, and what might be available to us, if we were to become willing to truly heal, and come back to our truth through deep, soft, quiet inner self, and let ourselves create from that place. I want to remind you to sign up for my newsletter on Kate Shepherd creative.com, I do a monthly giveaway of art, which I'm about to do a draw for I often write blog posts and essays for you on things that I'm thinking. And occasionally I'll do lives and workshops, how to choose Q and A's. And the best way to find out about all of those things is by being signed up for the newsletter
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And yeah, hold that. And hold that question with you for the next little while. As you walk about your day as you move through your life. What's another way to do this. Make sure you're signed up for my newsletter. I pick a random person from my email list once every month and send them an original piece of my artwork. It's one of my favorite things to do. It takes a lot to put together the show. Please consider supporting me to do it. You can visit patreon.com/creative Genius podcast to find out more. And please keep my jewelry or paintings and especially gratitude birds which keep selling out in mind. Next time you're looking for a treat for yourself or for a loved one. You can find everything I've mentioned on Kate Shepherd creative.com Thank you for being here, for opening your heart and for listening. My wish and intention for the show is that it reached into your heart and stir the beautiful thing that lives in there. May you find and unleash your creative genius
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